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On the other hand, this _adds_ protection against certain attacks. For example, it is common for criminals to put up fake ATMs, or surreptitiously add hardware

On the other hand, this _adds_ protection against certain attacks. For example, it is common for criminals to put up fake ATMs, or surreptitiously add hardware to existing ones, so that when you use them they steal your card number and PIN. One could do the same for gas stations, and they could steal arbitrarily much money from you. With the bitcoin setup, the most you can lose is the payment for the gas.

sillysaurus3 13y ago
For example, it is common for criminals to put up fake ATMs, or surreptitiously add hardware to existing ones, so that when you use them they steal your card number and PIN. One could do the same for gas stations, and they could steal arbitrarily much money from you. When someone stole my card and got gas with it, the credit card company immediately refunded me the transaction. If it were bitcoin theft, I would have lost my money. Also, people go to prison for a long time for stealing credit cards. I may have missed it, but I think the law hasn't yet convicted anyone of bitcoin fraud. So there's no deterrence yet.
- mikeash 13y ago
  Debit cards aren't as nice here. You can end up being liable for a good chunk of the loss if the skimmer gets your PIN and you don't notice the fraud right away. This is one reason why you should never run transactions as debit.
- pmorici 13y ago
  "the credit card company immediately refunded me the transaction" You pay for that service in the form of ~3% higher prices on everything you buy. Gas stations are a great example because they actually list separate prices for cash vs credit card sales so it's pretty obvious what that credit card costs you. You still paid for that loss it was just amortized over the 1,000's of transactions you do every year so you can make yourself feel better about it. In the case of your stolen credit card the losses could have gone all the way up to your credit limit. In the case of a fake QR code at a Bitcoin gas station the most you could possibly lose is the $50 it takes to fill your tank and it would more likely be the gas station that shouldered the loss because they would still be dispensing the gas to you because otherwise people would be wise to the thief after a single "I paid but the pump didn't turn on" incident. "I may have missed it, but I think the law hasn't yet convicted anyone of Bitcoin fraud." There is at least one that I know of and I could cite several other civil suits working their way through courts right now involving allegations of fraud and involving Bitcoin. https://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370539730583#.U1fllfldUpU https://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/13...

sillysaurus3 13y ago

For example, it is common for criminals to put up fake ATMs, or surreptitiously add hardware to existing ones, so that when you use them they steal your card number and PIN. One could do the same for gas stations, and they could steal arbitrarily much money from you. When someone stole my card and got gas with it, the credit card company immediately refunded me the transaction. If it were bitcoin theft, I would have lost my money. Also, people go to prison for a long time for stealing credit cards. I may have missed it, but I think the law hasn't yet convicted anyone of bitcoin fraud. So there's no deterrence yet.

mikeash 13y ago
Debit cards aren't as nice here. You can end up being liable for a good chunk of the loss if the skimmer gets your PIN and you don't notice the fraud right away. This is one reason why you should never run transactions as debit.
pmorici 13y ago
"the credit card company immediately refunded me the transaction" You pay for that service in the form of ~3% higher prices on everything you buy. Gas stations are a great example because they actually list separate prices for cash vs credit card sales so it's pretty obvious what that credit card costs you. You still paid for that loss it was just amortized over the 1,000's of transactions you do every year so you can make yourself feel better about it. In the case of your stolen credit card the losses could have gone all the way up to your credit limit. In the case of a fake QR code at a Bitcoin gas station the most you could possibly lose is the $50 it takes to fill your tank and it would more likely be the gas station that shouldered the loss because they would still be dispensing the gas to you because otherwise people would be wise to the thief after a single "I paid but the pump didn't turn on" incident. "I may have missed it, but I think the law hasn't yet convicted anyone of Bitcoin fraud." There is at least one that I know of and I could cite several other civil suits working their way through courts right now involving allegations of fraud and involving Bitcoin. https://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370539730583#.U1fllfldUpU https://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/13...