4 ms·

I can't wait until people start setting up fakes that simply take your money, or figure out how to hack these machines into displaying the hacker's wallet inste

I can't wait until people start setting up fakes that simply take your money, or figure out how to hack these machines into displaying the hacker's wallet instead of the gas station's. Wanna see a magic trick? Avada Kedavra, poof! Your money's gone, and there's no way to get it back.

mikeash 13y ago
There's a physical presence, so if the owner set it up to take your money and not give you any product, you should have little trouble getting the police to take care of it. For the hacking scenario, I imagine the owner of the pump could still be held liable for the loss.
- eisondyb 13y ago
  Exactly, I think the risk to the consumer here is actually substantially lower than is the case for a debit-card accepting pump. There is no way to install a skimmer on these. Your liability is limited to the amount of bitcoin you transfer.
- astrodust 13y ago
  There's been a history of people setting up fake ATMs, rolling in looking all official-like, plugging them in without people questioning it, and later being removed for data extraction. Few people find it suspicious that a brand new piece of hardware isn't "working correctly" and never dispenses money. Setting up a pump in a parking lot would only draw attention because of the relative novelty of it. Slapping a "We accept Bitcoin" sticker on someone else's regular gas-station pump and betting that someone would eventually send money would probably be more profitable.
- sillysaurus3 13y ago
  There's no way to prove whether the owner was a victim of hacking, or whether they intentionally set it up to steal people's money. And since the law won't catch up with bitcoin for many years, consumers will bear the risk in the meantime.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    Why does the law have to catch up with bitcoin? It's just a cash transaction that happens to use an unusual currency. Fundamentally, it's no different than a pump that takes cash, which has the same potential for ripoffs. Gas pumps that take cash aren't common, but vending machines for other stuff are, so it's not an unprecedented thing. Bitcoin enables some novel and difficult situations, but this isn't one of them.
    - sillysaurus3 13y ago
      It's a currency with irreversible transactions, meaning there isn't any fraud protection. With cash, the consumer would get their money back. With bitcoin, they won't.
      - mikeash 13y ago
        That doesn't make any sense. Cash transactions are irreversible too. The consumer gets their money back not by reversing the transaction, but by calling in the law and getting large men with guns to force the person to return the money. This works equally well with bitcoin as it does with US dollar bills.
        sillysaurus3 13y ago
        The consumer gets their money back not by reversing the transaction, but by calling in the law and getting large men with guns to force the person to return the money. Actually, consumers get their money back by calling up their credit card company, saying "I didn't make this transaction," and then the credit card company issues a refund and a new card. I've done it. Anyone can be a bitcoin payment processor, meaning anyone can set up a fake system to steal your money. The best you can do with dollars is to steal a credit card number, which gets you prison time and no money.
        mikeash 13y ago
        We're not talking about credit cards, we're talking about cash, as in small green pieces of paper. The law adequately handles cash fraud and bitcoin is no different. There is nothing for the law to "catch up to" as you previously stated.
vilhelm_s 13y ago
On the other hand, this _adds_ protection against certain attacks. For example, it is common for criminals to put up fake ATMs, or surreptitiously add hardware to existing ones, so that when you use them they steal your card number and PIN. One could do the same for gas stations, and they could steal arbitrarily much money from you. With the bitcoin setup, the most you can lose is the payment for the gas.
- sillysaurus3 13y ago
  For example, it is common for criminals to put up fake ATMs, or surreptitiously add hardware to existing ones, so that when you use them they steal your card number and PIN. One could do the same for gas stations, and they could steal arbitrarily much money from you. When someone stole my card and got gas with it, the credit card company immediately refunded me the transaction. If it were bitcoin theft, I would have lost my money. Also, people go to prison for a long time for stealing credit cards. I may have missed it, but I think the law hasn't yet convicted anyone of bitcoin fraud. So there's no deterrence yet.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    Debit cards aren't as nice here. You can end up being liable for a good chunk of the loss if the skimmer gets your PIN and you don't notice the fraud right away. This is one reason why you should never run transactions as debit.
  - pmorici 13y ago
    "the credit card company immediately refunded me the transaction" You pay for that service in the form of ~3% higher prices on everything you buy. Gas stations are a great example because they actually list separate prices for cash vs credit card sales so it's pretty obvious what that credit card costs you. You still paid for that loss it was just amortized over the 1,000's of transactions you do every year so you can make yourself feel better about it. In the case of your stolen credit card the losses could have gone all the way up to your credit limit. In the case of a fake QR code at a Bitcoin gas station the most you could possibly lose is the $50 it takes to fill your tank and it would more likely be the gas station that shouldered the loss because they would still be dispensing the gas to you because otherwise people would be wise to the thief after a single "I paid but the pump didn't turn on" incident. "I may have missed it, but I think the law hasn't yet convicted anyone of Bitcoin fraud." There is at least one that I know of and I could cite several other civil suits working their way through courts right now involving allegations of fraud and involving Bitcoin. https://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370539730583#.U1fllfldUpU https://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/13...
newaccountfool 13y ago
I can't wait until people start adding skimming devices that take your money, or figure out how to attach a GSM skimmer so they don't even have to retrieve the device. Wanna see a magic trick? Avada Kedavra, poof! Your moneys gone, and there's going to be a seriously long wait before you notice it gone or before you get it back.

mikeash 13y ago

There's a physical presence, so if the owner set it up to take your money and not give you any product, you should have little trouble getting the police to take care of it. For the hacking scenario, I imagine the owner of the pump could still be held liable for the loss.

eisondyb 13y ago
Exactly, I think the risk to the consumer here is actually substantially lower than is the case for a debit-card accepting pump. There is no way to install a skimmer on these. Your liability is limited to the amount of bitcoin you transfer.
astrodust 13y ago
There's been a history of people setting up fake ATMs, rolling in looking all official-like, plugging them in without people questioning it, and later being removed for data extraction. Few people find it suspicious that a brand new piece of hardware isn't "working correctly" and never dispenses money. Setting up a pump in a parking lot would only draw attention because of the relative novelty of it. Slapping a "We accept Bitcoin" sticker on someone else's regular gas-station pump and betting that someone would eventually send money would probably be more profitable.
sillysaurus3 13y ago
There's no way to prove whether the owner was a victim of hacking, or whether they intentionally set it up to steal people's money. And since the law won't catch up with bitcoin for many years, consumers will bear the risk in the meantime.
- mikeash 13y ago
  Why does the law have to catch up with bitcoin? It's just a cash transaction that happens to use an unusual currency. Fundamentally, it's no different than a pump that takes cash, which has the same potential for ripoffs. Gas pumps that take cash aren't common, but vending machines for other stuff are, so it's not an unprecedented thing. Bitcoin enables some novel and difficult situations, but this isn't one of them.
  - sillysaurus3 13y ago
    It's a currency with irreversible transactions, meaning there isn't any fraud protection. With cash, the consumer would get their money back. With bitcoin, they won't.
    - mikeash 13y ago
      That doesn't make any sense. Cash transactions are irreversible too. The consumer gets their money back not by reversing the transaction, but by calling in the law and getting large men with guns to force the person to return the money. This works equally well with bitcoin as it does with US dollar bills.
      - sillysaurus3 13y ago
        The consumer gets their money back not by reversing the transaction, but by calling in the law and getting large men with guns to force the person to return the money. Actually, consumers get their money back by calling up their credit card company, saying "I didn't make this transaction," and then the credit card company issues a refund and a new card. I've done it. Anyone can be a bitcoin payment processor, meaning anyone can set up a fake system to steal your money. The best you can do with dollars is to steal a credit card number, which gets you prison time and no money.
        mikeash 13y ago
        We're not talking about credit cards, we're talking about cash, as in small green pieces of paper. The law adequately handles cash fraud and bitcoin is no different. There is nothing for the law to "catch up to" as you previously stated.

vilhelm_s 13y ago

On the other hand, this _adds_ protection against certain attacks. For example, it is common for criminals to put up fake ATMs, or surreptitiously add hardware to existing ones, so that when you use them they steal your card number and PIN. One could do the same for gas stations, and they could steal arbitrarily much money from you. With the bitcoin setup, the most you can lose is the payment for the gas.

sillysaurus3 13y ago
For example, it is common for criminals to put up fake ATMs, or surreptitiously add hardware to existing ones, so that when you use them they steal your card number and PIN. One could do the same for gas stations, and they could steal arbitrarily much money from you. When someone stole my card and got gas with it, the credit card company immediately refunded me the transaction. If it were bitcoin theft, I would have lost my money. Also, people go to prison for a long time for stealing credit cards. I may have missed it, but I think the law hasn't yet convicted anyone of bitcoin fraud. So there's no deterrence yet.
- mikeash 13y ago
  Debit cards aren't as nice here. You can end up being liable for a good chunk of the loss if the skimmer gets your PIN and you don't notice the fraud right away. This is one reason why you should never run transactions as debit.
- pmorici 13y ago
  "the credit card company immediately refunded me the transaction" You pay for that service in the form of ~3% higher prices on everything you buy. Gas stations are a great example because they actually list separate prices for cash vs credit card sales so it's pretty obvious what that credit card costs you. You still paid for that loss it was just amortized over the 1,000's of transactions you do every year so you can make yourself feel better about it. In the case of your stolen credit card the losses could have gone all the way up to your credit limit. In the case of a fake QR code at a Bitcoin gas station the most you could possibly lose is the $50 it takes to fill your tank and it would more likely be the gas station that shouldered the loss because they would still be dispensing the gas to you because otherwise people would be wise to the thief after a single "I paid but the pump didn't turn on" incident. "I may have missed it, but I think the law hasn't yet convicted anyone of Bitcoin fraud." There is at least one that I know of and I could cite several other civil suits working their way through courts right now involving allegations of fraud and involving Bitcoin. https://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370539730583#.U1fllfldUpU https://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/13...

newaccountfool 13y ago

I can't wait until people start adding skimming devices that take your money, or figure out how to attach a GSM skimmer so they don't even have to retrieve the device. Wanna see a magic trick? Avada Kedavra, poof! Your moneys gone, and there's going to be a seriously long wait before you notice it gone or before you get it back.