2 ms·

I can certainly sympathise with the abstinence-only pride and shame cycle. My projects typically start with a test-first approach, which evaporates when the clo

by tragic 12y ago

I can certainly sympathise with the abstinence-only pride and shame cycle. My projects typically start with a test-first approach, which evaporates when the clock starts ticking. It seems to me, first of all, that there's a threshold of software complexity, beneath which writing tests is a net loss in time and productivity. If you have (as I often do) a couple of hundred LOC spread across a few files, with one or two models/views, then there is negligible gain to automated testing - by the time you've set up/torn down the test DB, you could have refreshed the page in a browser 5 times and seen all the error messages in there. I accept that this threshold can be hit very rapidly once you get towards a modest website, even; but my day job basically involves writing toy SPAs with a very simple API behind the scenes, built and then left chugging along until they're out of date, so I often sail under it. A bigger anxiety I have about TDD is that, while there are no end of resources on using tests to drive software design, I haven't come across much about good design of tests (suggestions very much welcome). I rarely have confidence that my tests are any more use than assert_true(true). You test for the constraints you anticipate when you write the tests. I don't trust my code-fu that far, and so my tests inherit their author's impostor syndrome.

mattgreenrocks 12y ago
> I haven't come across much about good design of tests (suggestions very much welcome) Growing Object-Oriented Software Guided By Tests is worth a start. The authors use TDD, but that shouldn't put you off from learning the theory of separating concerns enough to write fewer tests.
- penland 12y ago
  +1 - that's an outrageously good book.
mh_yam 12y ago
> I haven't come across much about good design of tests (suggestions very much welcome). I have yet to see a large-scale, popular piece of software written using TDD
edwinnathaniel 12y ago
http://xunitpatterns.com/ http://xunitpatterns.com/ That's another book for good tests design. Warning: very thick since it is a "reference" type of book.
wpietri 12y ago
I started doing TDD in 2000, so I'm pretty comfortable with it, and I totally agree with you on the threshold of complexity. For me, TDD is a way to get a better outcome for a project. It has big benefits, but it also has costs. If the costs are above the benefits, I won't do it. The obvious case is a single-use command-line shell script. Small code, single author, minimal duration, no reuse: automated testing isn't worth it. But if I'm building a large, multi-programmer, long-lasting project, with lots of changes along the way, I'll do a lot of automated testing. The tricky thing is that many projects start out small and then unexpectedly grow. You start out saying, "This doesn't need a test." And then it becomes, "Well now testing this is kinda hard and I don't have the time." And gradually you end up with an untestable legacy system that is a nightmare to work on. So the deal I make now is that I'm happy to do quick and dirty things as long as I get to throw away the code or clean it up properly when I decide the time is right. Basically, I'm willing to take on technical debt as long as I know I can declare bankruptcy when that's the right choice.

by tragic 12y ago

mattgreenrocks 12y ago

> I haven't come across much about good design of tests (suggestions very much welcome) Growing Object-Oriented Software Guided By Tests is worth a start. The authors use TDD, but that shouldn't put you off from learning the theory of separating concerns enough to write fewer tests.

penland 12y ago
+1 - that's an outrageously good book.

mh_yam 12y ago

> I haven't come across much about good design of tests (suggestions very much welcome). I have yet to see a large-scale, popular piece of software written using TDD

edwinnathaniel 12y ago

http://xunitpatterns.com/ http://xunitpatterns.com/ That's another book for good tests design. Warning: very thick since it is a "reference" type of book.

wpietri 12y ago

I started doing TDD in 2000, so I'm pretty comfortable with it, and I totally agree with you on the threshold of complexity. For me, TDD is a way to get a better outcome for a project. It has big benefits, but it also has costs. If the costs are above the benefits, I won't do it. The obvious case is a single-use command-line shell script. Small code, single author, minimal duration, no reuse: automated testing isn't worth it. But if I'm building a large, multi-programmer, long-lasting project, with lots of changes along the way, I'll do a lot of automated testing. The tricky thing is that many projects start out small and then unexpectedly grow. You start out saying, "This doesn't need a test." And then it becomes, "Well now testing this is kinda hard and I don't have the time." And gradually you end up with an untestable legacy system that is a nightmare to work on. So the deal I make now is that I'm happy to do quick and dirty things as long as I get to throw away the code or clean it up properly when I decide the time is right. Basically, I'm willing to take on technical debt as long as I know I can declare bankruptcy when that's the right choice.