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The author explicitly acknowledges that the traditional "girly" friendship may not be the optimal. And implies that male friendships can be deeper than shared a

The author explicitly acknowledges that the traditional "girly" friendship may not be the optimal. And implies that male friendships can be deeper than shared activities without turning into such relationships: > At the same time, a wave of feminist sociologists and psychologists began describing female friendship, with all its confessional talk, as the optimal model. > Many feminist thinkers now see those views as overly simplistic. And as recent news about gay marriage shows, America is growing more comfortable with homosexuality. I don't think the article extols that particular type of friendship. I am surprised the article gives you that impression at all.

meric 13y ago
I'm uncomfortable with the idea that feminist thinkers should be an authority on male friendships, since by definition feminist thinkers think from the point of women, and here we are discussing friendships between men. I've a couple of female "friends"[1], and generally when talking to them I often feel all they're doing is telling me how right I am to feel in such and such way, frequently highlighting the differences between "us" and "them", whoever "them" might be, whenever the opportunity arise. (I suppose you'd call that 'gossip'). I also find often their opinions aren't decided till they figure out everyone else's, as if a fact cannot be correct until it is agreed on by other people. And when I speak confidently about a non-conformist view, they're often reluctant to outright disagree with me until they're sure my view is non-conformist, which might be weeks later when they suddenly bring it up (I assume after having quizzed all their friends). I've been called a "best friend" half a dozen times by other men in the past year or two, but I've only got one best friend myself, who I've known for close to a decade, and we talk most days of the week. I think one of the most important qualities in a close male friendship is to mean what I say and say what I mean, even if no one would agree with me, even if it offends and hurts feelings. I think that is the stuff male bond is made of. It's hard to feel closeness when a friend is hiding what they really think about me from me[2]. To maintain the closeness of a male friendship, it's also important I put it above any romantic relationships I develop with women, even, and especially when, the women in such relationship puts pressure on me to become closer to her than to my friends. If I was "Matt" in the article, and if the author was my best friend, and a very important one at that, I would rather divorce my wife than move, if the move would endanger the friendship I had with the author. Only this willingness to sacrifice would ensure the strength of the bond in the friendship[3]. [1] I don't consider any female as "friends" even if they think I'm theirs, because of [2]. [3] It is also my opinion that "following" my wife wherever she goes and agreeing with her every word would reduce her attraction for me somewhat. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10524035/Happy-marriage-study-abandoned-as-husband-becomes-depressed.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10524035/Hap...
- zethraeus 13y ago
  'Feminism' (is a bad name and) does not by definition imply thinking from the point of view of a woman. Feminism is usually defined approximately as 'anti-sexism'. Often that involves discussing issues where women are worse off- but not really in this article!
  - meric 13y ago
    "Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.[3]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism I can tell we're going to have a lot of disagreements over the definition and the concept of Feminism so I'm just going to suggest maybe you could edit the wikipedia entry on Feminism and change the definition there to include the possibilities of inequalities against men.
- brazzy 13y ago
  > when talking to them I often feel all they're doing is telling me how right I am to feel in such and such way, frequently highlighting the differences between "us" and "them", whoever "them" might be, whenever the opportunity arise. (I suppose you'd call that 'gossip'). It's called "emotional validation", and widely acknowledged as something that women are notoriously keen on and men are notoriously bad at providing. http://www.womensweb.in/2012/04/validating-feelings-expressing-emotion/ http://www.womensweb.in/2012/04/validating-feelings-expressi... Or, in a satirical manner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
  - meric 13y ago
    Yes, it would be called that. I suppose the I'm not entirely comfortable with it all the time because when someone is doing it to me, they're just saying I'm right because I think I'm right, rather than telling them what they think. I suppose they could actually be feeling the same way as I do about the issue but that would only have happened because through the way I told the the story I managed to transfer my emotions to them. Sometimes I feel I'm talking to a mirror rather than a friend. Of course at other times it's just hearing what I want to hear and I suppose everyone would enjoy that from time to time. It's not something I want my friend to exclusively do to me all the time whenever we're communicating however.

meric 13y ago

I'm uncomfortable with the idea that feminist thinkers should be an authority on male friendships, since by definition feminist thinkers think from the point of women, and here we are discussing friendships between men. I've a couple of female "friends"[1], and generally when talking to them I often feel all they're doing is telling me how right I am to feel in such and such way, frequently highlighting the differences between "us" and "them", whoever "them" might be, whenever the opportunity arise. (I suppose you'd call that 'gossip'). I also find often their opinions aren't decided till they figure out everyone else's, as if a fact cannot be correct until it is agreed on by other people. And when I speak confidently about a non-conformist view, they're often reluctant to outright disagree with me until they're sure my view is non-conformist, which might be weeks later when they suddenly bring it up (I assume after having quizzed all their friends). I've been called a "best friend" half a dozen times by other men in the past year or two, but I've only got one best friend myself, who I've known for close to a decade, and we talk most days of the week. I think one of the most important qualities in a close male friendship is to mean what I say and say what I mean, even if no one would agree with me, even if it offends and hurts feelings. I think that is the stuff male bond is made of. It's hard to feel closeness when a friend is hiding what they really think about me from me[2]. To maintain the closeness of a male friendship, it's also important I put it above any romantic relationships I develop with women, even, and especially when, the women in such relationship puts pressure on me to become closer to her than to my friends. If I was "Matt" in the article, and if the author was my best friend, and a very important one at that, I would rather divorce my wife than move, if the move would endanger the friendship I had with the author. Only this willingness to sacrifice would ensure the strength of the bond in the friendship[3]. [1] I don't consider any female as "friends" even if they think I'm theirs, because of [2]. [3] It is also my opinion that "following" my wife wherever she goes and agreeing with her every word would reduce her attraction for me somewhat. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10524035/Happy-marriage-study-abandoned-as-husband-becomes-depressed.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10524035/Hap...

zethraeus 13y ago
'Feminism' (is a bad name and) does not by definition imply thinking from the point of view of a woman. Feminism is usually defined approximately as 'anti-sexism'. Often that involves discussing issues where women are worse off- but not really in this article!
- meric 13y ago
  "Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.[3]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism I can tell we're going to have a lot of disagreements over the definition and the concept of Feminism so I'm just going to suggest maybe you could edit the wikipedia entry on Feminism and change the definition there to include the possibilities of inequalities against men.
brazzy 13y ago
> when talking to them I often feel all they're doing is telling me how right I am to feel in such and such way, frequently highlighting the differences between "us" and "them", whoever "them" might be, whenever the opportunity arise. (I suppose you'd call that 'gossip'). It's called "emotional validation", and widely acknowledged as something that women are notoriously keen on and men are notoriously bad at providing. http://www.womensweb.in/2012/04/validating-feelings-expressing-emotion/ http://www.womensweb.in/2012/04/validating-feelings-expressi... Or, in a satirical manner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
- meric 13y ago
  Yes, it would be called that. I suppose the I'm not entirely comfortable with it all the time because when someone is doing it to me, they're just saying I'm right because I think I'm right, rather than telling them what they think. I suppose they could actually be feeling the same way as I do about the issue but that would only have happened because through the way I told the the story I managed to transfer my emotions to them. Sometimes I feel I'm talking to a mirror rather than a friend. Of course at other times it's just hearing what I want to hear and I suppose everyone would enjoy that from time to time. It's not something I want my friend to exclusively do to me all the time whenever we're communicating however.