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I took an AI class and also a computer graphics class at a CUNY school in the fall of 2013. Among CS-major seniors who are in the top half of the class, none t

by Ologn 13y ago

I took an AI class and also a computer graphics class at a CUNY school in the fall of 2013. Among CS-major seniors who are in the top half of the class, none that I talked to knew what software version control was, what git or Perforce or cvs etc. were. The faculty is good. Almost all of them knew their stuff, and a few were very good at explaining things clearly. The kids just didn't seem to have much interest in doing computer stuff outside of class. You'd think at least once in four years they'd browse Github bug reports, do a patch and send a pull request. They don't though. The ACM computer club on campus was always a little derelict and is now pretty much inactive. A lot of kids have vague ideas about building video games, but then take a graphics course which uses matrix math to calculate transformations, formulas to calculate Phong shading and so forth. After doing that they lose interest. They do get training - the theoretical stuff is taught beautifully. We also did a lot of Java and C++, as well as some Python, Common Lisp, Prolog etc. As well as learning about DBMSs and the various normal forms, or how the fetch/execute cycle works etc. and all of that. I don't know how to explain the problem other than that students did the work for a grade and that was it. They had no interest in programming outside of class work. One reason I did extra work was just to feel I could apply things. I learned Java, and then fixed some open source Java bugs, and then wrote a 1000+ line program in order to get a grip on what I learned. Otherwise it would be free floating theory about inheritance, polymorphism, objects etc. The same with graphics - I did some OpenGL work to ground what I learned in class. Some kids did not even really seem to care about learning what was needed for class or getting a decent grade. I don't know why they're even bothering. I can see slogging through required general classes, but slogging through your major?

cbhl 13y ago
I'm under the impression that entry-level CS jobs pay well enough now that there are people who enter the field because of the money, or because their helicopter parents told them they'd get a good, stable (ha, ha) job in it, and not just because they love the field. I personally think that's a shame, but on the other hand, I'd rather it be CS than, say, Actuarial Science. If you love food, for example, I bet there are jobs that tie CS and food together. Same for finance, etc. I recently read Marilla D. Svinicki's Learning and Motivation in the Postsecondary Classroom; I'd recommend you borrow a copy from your local university library if they have one. I think there's a lot that instructors can do to make class more interesting for students and also have them learn more in the end. Though juggling that and research is a challenge in and of itself.
null_ptr 13y ago
They're there because they heard they'll get a big salary they don't deserve at the end of those 4 years, not because they have any interest in the field or want to contribute anything to the world. It's probably been like this since the dot-com era and the mediocrity has only snowballed since. The state of the software industry and the educational institutions around it is an embarrassment. If the curriculum was any good, these minimum-effort clowns would not be able to earn a degree in Computer Science.
- m_ke 13y ago
  I really don't think that's the case. Plenty of CS majors at CUNYs have no idea how much programmers make. Most come in not knowing what to major in, end up taking an intro programming class to meet some basic requirement and end up liking it enough to continue learning it. They go through the program doing well enough to pass and hope that what they learn in class will help them get a job once they're done. None of them read hackernews, so they have no idea that living and breathing computers is prereq for becoming an employable programmer.
  - pabb 13y ago
    "None of them read hackernews, so they have no idea that living and breathing computers is prereq for becoming an employable programmer." I know, right? I forgot that we who check HN habitually are the ones destined for developer Valhalla. Go us!
  - jaydz 13y ago
    Current CUNY CS major here. Yes, the majority of CUNY CS majors are clueless individuals who have zero business being here. However, there are many diamonds in the CUNY rough (some can be found here: http://cunytap.wordpress.com/ http://cunytap.wordpress.com/) who love CS and programming. There's some good talent here for startups in the alley to scoop up if they cared to look.
    - BTC_BruceWillis 13y ago
      I've heard good things about TAP.
m_ke 13y ago
As someone who got to experience CS education at Columbia and Queens College I think the main reason for this is the fact that CUNYs are commuter schools. Most people at Queens College grew up in Queens, have plenty of family and friends in the area and only step on campus when they have class. On the other hand, at Columbia most freshmen come in not knowing anyone and have no option but to go out and meet other students, join clubs and get involved in their departments. Now you have a bunch of brilliant CS majors, some of whom have been programming since the age of 5, spending most of their time together and learning from each other. The ones who are not up to speed usually catch up in a semester or 2. I've seen plenty of new student come into the Fall hackNY not knowing what Git is and then using node.js and angular few months later at the Spring hackathon. I'd bet most CS students at Queens College, like a good portion of incoming freshmen at Columbia, don't even know what a hackathon is. There's no ADI at QC, no workshops, no info sessions from top companies, no hackathons and in most cases not even research positions.

by Ologn 13y ago

cbhl 13y ago

I'm under the impression that entry-level CS jobs pay well enough now that there are people who enter the field because of the money, or because their helicopter parents told them they'd get a good, stable (ha, ha) job in it, and not just because they love the field. I personally think that's a shame, but on the other hand, I'd rather it be CS than, say, Actuarial Science. If you love food, for example, I bet there are jobs that tie CS and food together. Same for finance, etc. I recently read Marilla D. Svinicki's Learning and Motivation in the Postsecondary Classroom; I'd recommend you borrow a copy from your local university library if they have one. I think there's a lot that instructors can do to make class more interesting for students and also have them learn more in the end. Though juggling that and research is a challenge in and of itself.

null_ptr 13y ago

They're there because they heard they'll get a big salary they don't deserve at the end of those 4 years, not because they have any interest in the field or want to contribute anything to the world. It's probably been like this since the dot-com era and the mediocrity has only snowballed since. The state of the software industry and the educational institutions around it is an embarrassment. If the curriculum was any good, these minimum-effort clowns would not be able to earn a degree in Computer Science.

m_ke 13y ago
I really don't think that's the case. Plenty of CS majors at CUNYs have no idea how much programmers make. Most come in not knowing what to major in, end up taking an intro programming class to meet some basic requirement and end up liking it enough to continue learning it. They go through the program doing well enough to pass and hope that what they learn in class will help them get a job once they're done. None of them read hackernews, so they have no idea that living and breathing computers is prereq for becoming an employable programmer.
- pabb 13y ago
  "None of them read hackernews, so they have no idea that living and breathing computers is prereq for becoming an employable programmer." I know, right? I forgot that we who check HN habitually are the ones destined for developer Valhalla. Go us!
- jaydz 13y ago
  Current CUNY CS major here. Yes, the majority of CUNY CS majors are clueless individuals who have zero business being here. However, there are many diamonds in the CUNY rough (some can be found here: http://cunytap.wordpress.com/ http://cunytap.wordpress.com/) who love CS and programming. There's some good talent here for startups in the alley to scoop up if they cared to look.
  - BTC_BruceWillis 13y ago
    I've heard good things about TAP.

m_ke 13y ago

As someone who got to experience CS education at Columbia and Queens College I think the main reason for this is the fact that CUNYs are commuter schools. Most people at Queens College grew up in Queens, have plenty of family and friends in the area and only step on campus when they have class. On the other hand, at Columbia most freshmen come in not knowing anyone and have no option but to go out and meet other students, join clubs and get involved in their departments. Now you have a bunch of brilliant CS majors, some of whom have been programming since the age of 5, spending most of their time together and learning from each other. The ones who are not up to speed usually catch up in a semester or 2. I've seen plenty of new student come into the Fall hackNY not knowing what Git is and then using node.js and angular few months later at the Spring hackathon. I'd bet most CS students at Queens College, like a good portion of incoming freshmen at Columbia, don't even know what a hackathon is. There's no ADI at QC, no workshops, no info sessions from top companies, no hackathons and in most cases not even research positions.