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"We saw lots of people in the City University of New York system who graduated as computer science majors but weren't going into the tech industry...It was a lo

"We saw lots of people in the City University of New York system who graduated as computer science majors but weren't going into the tech industry...It was a lot of access and network problems, and a lack of technical training." This is really confusing. How do you graduate as a computer science major and lack technical training? And if that's the case, how does such a faculty remain in business?

jukay 12y ago
There are CS majors that learn foundational skills but don't learn practical frameworks that companies are looking for. Also, there many other adults from other backgrounds that never have a chance to learn iOS or ruby or code. We want to provide those opportunities and build a new pipeline of technical talent, particularly for underserved communities.
- w1ntermute 12y ago
  > There are CS majors that learn foundational skills but don't learn practical frameworks that companies are looking for. How many CS majors at more prestigious schools learn iOS or Ruby on Rails through their classes? I think they usually learn on their own or through internships.
  - vishaldpatel 12y ago
    And they have a name-brand degree going for them.
    - null_ptr 12y ago
      > And they have a name-brand degree going for them. And you can bet your ass they know what "version control" is and can pick up some flavor of the month framework without someone needing to hold their hands.
      - vishaldpatel 12y ago
        I could, but I wouldn't. You'll be surprised by how many brand name grads can't pass fizz buzz.
        byuu 12y ago
        Half the people tell me that CS grads have to create new programming languages, write compilers, toy operating systems, computer emulators, learn thousands of complex algorithms, etc. And then the other half tell me that there are CS grads who can't write simple loops. You simply can't do the former if you aren't capable of the latter. As someone who did not go to college, I sure wish I knew which was really the case. Either one side is lying, or there is absolutely extreme variance between college CS courses. As in several orders of magnitude. Any CS degree from a college that would pass a student incapable of passing fizz buzz should be absolutely worthless.
        UK-AL 12y ago
        Because people in start ups judge people on if they can use the latest web framework, and not designing compiliers.
        67726e 12y ago
        You'd be surprised how far rote memorization and Google along with a little cheating can get you. I have a friend currently finishing up his third year for his CS degree. I've tried helping him for the entire time, but he really just doesn't give a damn enough to actually learn. He somehow passes all of the tests, but I know for a fact he could not pass FizzBuzz right now. I know. I've given it to him and watched him completely fail to even decompose the problem let alone start working on a solution.
        faet 12y ago
        Much of the work done at my local state college is done in groups. This means that you have 1-2 people who are writing the complex algorithms, compilers, etc. And 1-2 who can't. You do zero solo-programming. 10 years ago, there was more self programming, but then the fail rate started going up. So, everything is in 'groups'. As long as those who can't program memorize the terms needed for the tests (no actual programming on tests) they will graduate. Also, they give you choices for some classes. For instance, you can do a Senior Project or internship. The internship is 100h, for most students this can be done in 3 weeks during may-mester. Someone I know is currently doing their internship at a hospital fixing laptops. The Senior project usually takes 2 semesters. The Senior projects vary from a website to client/server app to robotics. Those who do senior projects are also encouraged to do internships during the summer as it is a good way to network (although no school credit is given).
Ologn 12y ago
I took an AI class and also a computer graphics class at a CUNY school in the fall of 2013. Among CS-major seniors who are in the top half of the class, none that I talked to knew what software version control was, what git or Perforce or cvs etc. were. The faculty is good. Almost all of them knew their stuff, and a few were very good at explaining things clearly. The kids just didn't seem to have much interest in doing computer stuff outside of class. You'd think at least once in four years they'd browse Github bug reports, do a patch and send a pull request. They don't though. The ACM computer club on campus was always a little derelict and is now pretty much inactive. A lot of kids have vague ideas about building video games, but then take a graphics course which uses matrix math to calculate transformations, formulas to calculate Phong shading and so forth. After doing that they lose interest. They do get training - the theoretical stuff is taught beautifully. We also did a lot of Java and C++, as well as some Python, Common Lisp, Prolog etc. As well as learning about DBMSs and the various normal forms, or how the fetch/execute cycle works etc. and all of that. I don't know how to explain the problem other than that students did the work for a grade and that was it. They had no interest in programming outside of class work. One reason I did extra work was just to feel I could apply things. I learned Java, and then fixed some open source Java bugs, and then wrote a 1000+ line program in order to get a grip on what I learned. Otherwise it would be free floating theory about inheritance, polymorphism, objects etc. The same with graphics - I did some OpenGL work to ground what I learned in class. Some kids did not even really seem to care about learning what was needed for class or getting a decent grade. I don't know why they're even bothering. I can see slogging through required general classes, but slogging through your major?
- cbhl 12y ago
  I'm under the impression that entry-level CS jobs pay well enough now that there are people who enter the field because of the money, or because their helicopter parents told them they'd get a good, stable (ha, ha) job in it, and not just because they love the field. I personally think that's a shame, but on the other hand, I'd rather it be CS than, say, Actuarial Science. If you love food, for example, I bet there are jobs that tie CS and food together. Same for finance, etc. I recently read Marilla D. Svinicki's Learning and Motivation in the Postsecondary Classroom; I'd recommend you borrow a copy from your local university library if they have one. I think there's a lot that instructors can do to make class more interesting for students and also have them learn more in the end. Though juggling that and research is a challenge in and of itself.
faet 12y ago
The school I went to originally had a 60% fail rate with their computer science program. The first class was huge, 80 students to 1 teacher. This was the first time most of the students did any programming at all. To fix, this they changed the course to the class room being "theory". Which mostly meant learning terms (What is an Int, String, etc). The second half of the class was a "lab with paired programming". Those who knew how to program going in would carry those who didn't. Many students couldn't even type at a reasonable speed. If you and your pair had no idea how to complete the assignment, the TA would basically do it for you. This brought the fail rate in line with other classes. This continued for the rest of their college career. You could get through doing zero solo programming. The result was seniors who don't know about inheritance. The only thing they know is "public void someName()". But, because they don't have good OO practices, it ends up just being 1 program with everything in the main method. These are the students who don't have technical training. Many came in because "Computers are the future.", "I have a friend making good money doing this.", and "everything is already written I just need to google."

jukay 12y ago

There are CS majors that learn foundational skills but don't learn practical frameworks that companies are looking for. Also, there many other adults from other backgrounds that never have a chance to learn iOS or ruby or code. We want to provide those opportunities and build a new pipeline of technical talent, particularly for underserved communities.

w1ntermute 12y ago
> There are CS majors that learn foundational skills but don't learn practical frameworks that companies are looking for. How many CS majors at more prestigious schools learn iOS or Ruby on Rails through their classes? I think they usually learn on their own or through internships.
- vishaldpatel 12y ago
  And they have a name-brand degree going for them.
  - null_ptr 12y ago
    > And they have a name-brand degree going for them. And you can bet your ass they know what "version control" is and can pick up some flavor of the month framework without someone needing to hold their hands.
    - vishaldpatel 12y ago
      I could, but I wouldn't. You'll be surprised by how many brand name grads can't pass fizz buzz.
      - byuu 12y ago
        Half the people tell me that CS grads have to create new programming languages, write compilers, toy operating systems, computer emulators, learn thousands of complex algorithms, etc. And then the other half tell me that there are CS grads who can't write simple loops. You simply can't do the former if you aren't capable of the latter. As someone who did not go to college, I sure wish I knew which was really the case. Either one side is lying, or there is absolutely extreme variance between college CS courses. As in several orders of magnitude. Any CS degree from a college that would pass a student incapable of passing fizz buzz should be absolutely worthless.
        UK-AL 12y ago
        Because people in start ups judge people on if they can use the latest web framework, and not designing compiliers.
        67726e 12y ago
        You'd be surprised how far rote memorization and Google along with a little cheating can get you. I have a friend currently finishing up his third year for his CS degree. I've tried helping him for the entire time, but he really just doesn't give a damn enough to actually learn. He somehow passes all of the tests, but I know for a fact he could not pass FizzBuzz right now. I know. I've given it to him and watched him completely fail to even decompose the problem let alone start working on a solution.
        faet 12y ago
        Much of the work done at my local state college is done in groups. This means that you have 1-2 people who are writing the complex algorithms, compilers, etc. And 1-2 who can't. You do zero solo-programming. 10 years ago, there was more self programming, but then the fail rate started going up. So, everything is in 'groups'. As long as those who can't program memorize the terms needed for the tests (no actual programming on tests) they will graduate. Also, they give you choices for some classes. For instance, you can do a Senior Project or internship. The internship is 100h, for most students this can be done in 3 weeks during may-mester. Someone I know is currently doing their internship at a hospital fixing laptops. The Senior project usually takes 2 semesters. The Senior projects vary from a website to client/server app to robotics. Those who do senior projects are also encouraged to do internships during the summer as it is a good way to network (although no school credit is given).

Ologn 12y ago

I took an AI class and also a computer graphics class at a CUNY school in the fall of 2013. Among CS-major seniors who are in the top half of the class, none that I talked to knew what software version control was, what git or Perforce or cvs etc. were. The faculty is good. Almost all of them knew their stuff, and a few were very good at explaining things clearly. The kids just didn't seem to have much interest in doing computer stuff outside of class. You'd think at least once in four years they'd browse Github bug reports, do a patch and send a pull request. They don't though. The ACM computer club on campus was always a little derelict and is now pretty much inactive. A lot of kids have vague ideas about building video games, but then take a graphics course which uses matrix math to calculate transformations, formulas to calculate Phong shading and so forth. After doing that they lose interest. They do get training - the theoretical stuff is taught beautifully. We also did a lot of Java and C++, as well as some Python, Common Lisp, Prolog etc. As well as learning about DBMSs and the various normal forms, or how the fetch/execute cycle works etc. and all of that. I don't know how to explain the problem other than that students did the work for a grade and that was it. They had no interest in programming outside of class work. One reason I did extra work was just to feel I could apply things. I learned Java, and then fixed some open source Java bugs, and then wrote a 1000+ line program in order to get a grip on what I learned. Otherwise it would be free floating theory about inheritance, polymorphism, objects etc. The same with graphics - I did some OpenGL work to ground what I learned in class. Some kids did not even really seem to care about learning what was needed for class or getting a decent grade. I don't know why they're even bothering. I can see slogging through required general classes, but slogging through your major?

cbhl 12y ago
I'm under the impression that entry-level CS jobs pay well enough now that there are people who enter the field because of the money, or because their helicopter parents told them they'd get a good, stable (ha, ha) job in it, and not just because they love the field. I personally think that's a shame, but on the other hand, I'd rather it be CS than, say, Actuarial Science. If you love food, for example, I bet there are jobs that tie CS and food together. Same for finance, etc. I recently read Marilla D. Svinicki's Learning and Motivation in the Postsecondary Classroom; I'd recommend you borrow a copy from your local university library if they have one. I think there's a lot that instructors can do to make class more interesting for students and also have them learn more in the end. Though juggling that and research is a challenge in and of itself.

faet 12y ago

The school I went to originally had a 60% fail rate with their computer science program. The first class was huge, 80 students to 1 teacher. This was the first time most of the students did any programming at all. To fix, this they changed the course to the class room being "theory". Which mostly meant learning terms (What is an Int, String, etc). The second half of the class was a "lab with paired programming". Those who knew how to program going in would carry those who didn't. Many students couldn't even type at a reasonable speed. If you and your pair had no idea how to complete the assignment, the TA would basically do it for you. This brought the fail rate in line with other classes. This continued for the rest of their college career. You could get through doing zero solo programming. The result was seniors who don't know about inheritance. The only thing they know is "public void someName()". But, because they don't have good OO practices, it ends up just being 1 program with everything in the main method. These are the students who don't have technical training. Many came in because "Computers are the future.", "I have a friend making good money doing this.", and "everything is already written I just need to google."