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Following that line, a deterministic universe is a better vehicle for free will that a truly random one. Why? Because a truly random one could self-kill, bec

by mamcx 13y ago

Following that line, a deterministic universe is a better vehicle for free will that a truly random one. Why? Because a truly random one could self-kill, become one where will not exist anymore (of any kind), self-nullify itself, randomly chaos to laws and everything else. Have a stable "layer" for the universe is not (IMHO) a problem from a designed universe + free will, because the laws that make "free will" need to be stable to make sense and work!

cortesoft 13y ago
I don't follow your logic... if the universe is deterministic, then I can't have free will; my behavior is 'determined' by the current state of the universe. I can't change that through any act of will, therefore I do not have free will. If I have free will, then the universe is necessarily not deterministic, since I could choose between (at least) 2 actions that would lead to different future states of the universe.
- mamcx 13y ago
  Why you link your thinking with the sub-atoms? Why do you think that if the sub-atoms are deterministic your thinking can't decide?
  - cortesoft 13y ago
    Because all of my thoughts are represented someway in the physical world. My thoughts are just neurons interacting. Now, if you are suggesting that my thoughts are somehow outside of the physical world... well, it still wouldn't work with a deterministic world. If the universe is 'deterministic', that means that given the current state of the universe, there is only a single path the universe can progress down. Every future state of the world is 'determined' by the current state. For example, the location of the water bottle on my desk could be 'determined' if we had perfect knowledge of the state of the universe. However, if I had free will, I could choose to move that water bottle to somewhere else. The universe is no longer deterministic.
    - mamcx 13y ago
      I still don't see why hard link both. In a truly random universe, the location of the bottle is a nonsense answer (or more exactly: is random). You can ask that. The bootle could, suddenly, not be there, so you can't decide where move the bootle. The freedom of move the bottle is DEPENDENT of have a location for it, and have a certainty that a)Move exist, and the laws of it can be trusted b) Will move to the location you want to. So I think that a chaotic universe is more problematic for this problem that a ordered one. Also, I think is possible to have "static" laws but "dynamic" actions, specially because a each step, could exist a limited set of possible outcomes (ie: You can't move to anywhere in the universe the bootle) but the summation of each step provide a path where you are not totally tied, ie, each step is bounded, but the final outcome is random (or random enough) to still make free will the reality.
- Houshalter 13y ago
  If the universe is deterministic than you can change the future obviously, since the future state of the universe depends on the actions you take in the present. If the universe is random then the future state doesn't depend on the current state. Existence is meaningless chaos and you have no control over anything, even your own actions. Your thoughts would be nothing more than meaningless dice rolls that have no correlation with reality, or anything.

by mamcx 13y ago

cortesoft 13y ago

I don't follow your logic... if the universe is deterministic, then I can't have free will; my behavior is 'determined' by the current state of the universe. I can't change that through any act of will, therefore I do not have free will. If I have free will, then the universe is necessarily not deterministic, since I could choose between (at least) 2 actions that would lead to different future states of the universe.

mamcx 13y ago
Why you link your thinking with the sub-atoms? Why do you think that if the sub-atoms are deterministic your thinking can't decide?
- cortesoft 13y ago
  Because all of my thoughts are represented someway in the physical world. My thoughts are just neurons interacting. Now, if you are suggesting that my thoughts are somehow outside of the physical world... well, it still wouldn't work with a deterministic world. If the universe is 'deterministic', that means that given the current state of the universe, there is only a single path the universe can progress down. Every future state of the world is 'determined' by the current state. For example, the location of the water bottle on my desk could be 'determined' if we had perfect knowledge of the state of the universe. However, if I had free will, I could choose to move that water bottle to somewhere else. The universe is no longer deterministic.
  - mamcx 13y ago
    I still don't see why hard link both. In a truly random universe, the location of the bottle is a nonsense answer (or more exactly: is random). You can ask that. The bootle could, suddenly, not be there, so you can't decide where move the bootle. The freedom of move the bottle is DEPENDENT of have a location for it, and have a certainty that a)Move exist, and the laws of it can be trusted b) Will move to the location you want to. So I think that a chaotic universe is more problematic for this problem that a ordered one. Also, I think is possible to have "static" laws but "dynamic" actions, specially because a each step, could exist a limited set of possible outcomes (ie: You can't move to anywhere in the universe the bootle) but the summation of each step provide a path where you are not totally tied, ie, each step is bounded, but the final outcome is random (or random enough) to still make free will the reality.
Houshalter 13y ago
If the universe is deterministic than you can change the future obviously, since the future state of the universe depends on the actions you take in the present. If the universe is random then the future state doesn't depend on the current state. Existence is meaningless chaos and you have no control over anything, even your own actions. Your thoughts would be nothing more than meaningless dice rolls that have no correlation with reality, or anything.