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Exactly. The income includes retirement and unemployment benefits but doesn't include other public benefits such as public healthcare, public education, public
by flexie 13y ago
Exactly. The income includes retirement and unemployment benefits but doesn't include other public benefits such as public healthcare, public education, public transportation. Being "after tax" it discounts for taxes that are usually higher in Europe but it doesn't discount for expenses that Americans generally have to pay with their income after tax but which many or most Europeans pay via tax (or don't have to pay at all) such as health care, college, third or fourth family car, higher cost for religious activities, higher cost for litigation, higher cost for private security etc.).
It is difficult to make good comparisons without taking the public spending into account or deducting for the part of the private income that Americans must allocate to expenses that are paid over the taxes Western European countries.
For most Europeans the value of free or almost free public benefits such as public healthcare, public education (from kindergarten to university), public transportation, low crime rate etc. is substantial.
Having lived in three European countries (Scandinavian, Iberian and now in the Balkans) and in the US (New York) I have maintained for years that American median wealth seems smaller than Western European wealth and that there is a huge public investment backlog in the US: Roads, airports, subways, railroads, hospitals, schools etc. is very outdated in many places (probably because much of it was built decades before similar infrastructure in Europe).
In America I felt like we would have to struggle just to make it into what felt like "middle class life". In Western Europe middle class life is a base from where people build their lives.
- the_watcher 13y agoSo is the correct way to look at "middle class wealth" to take top line incomes and then determine a list of "middle class services" and then subtract the average cost paid for those services in each country? This has long been a pet peeve of mine in country v. country comparisons.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- buyx 13y agoThis sort of comparison would also be useful for South Africa, where the cost of maintaining a middle class lifestyle (security, education and healthcare) is relatively high. I usually regard my taxes as charitable donations to the millions who subsist on welfare payments- I've long since learned to view any services I receive from the state as a bonus.
- icebraining 13y ago"Iberian"? We're two countries, you know. And I wouldn't say middle class life is the base here in Portugal, especially since the crisis hit hard.
- mseebach 13y agoScandinavia is three countries and the Balkans is eight.
- levosmetalo 13y agoBalkans consists of 10 "full blown" countries like Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania, Greece and Turkey and 2 half recognized or yet unrecognized territories like Kosovo and Republika Srpska.
- mynewwork 13y agoTo counter your anecdote with my anecdote, I've observed the complete opposite. An American professional will easily afford a car (and two cars for a 2-adult household), will be able to go out to lunch regularly and go out to dinner when they please. If they want to see a specialist for a medical issue they'll have an appointment in a day. A Danish professional may not have a car at all for a few years out of college and will likely struggle to have a second car for their partner even as a senior-level employee. They will bring their lunch every day and rarely if ever go out for dinner. Their medical issues will take weeks or months to be seen if deemed non-emergency and they'll have less choice in which doctor they see. It's probably easier to be at the bottom of society in western Europe than in the US, but for anyone in the American middle class their quality of life would go down substantially if the moved to Scandinavia.
- flexie 13y agoBeing Danish myself I remember eating lunch out almost every day, and eating dinner out with my wife and kid several times a month. And this was at real restaurants without famous names or ads on tv, not at these fast food chain "restaurants" that I saw parents take their kids to in the Midwest :-) As you mention is common, I biked to work or took the metro. It's really not necessary or even much of a convenience in Copenhagen to have a car. Don't Americans have more cars because American cities are sprawling, have little public transportation and few sidewalks? In New York, a compact American city with great sidewalks and great public transportation, almost no one I knew owned a car. But I agree as for the waiting time to see specialists for non life threatening issues. That part of the Danish healthcare system is really not working well.
- rwissmann 13y agoYou are confusing lifestyle choices with lifestyle constraints. Europe in general has a much less developed culture of going out for food. People will do it occasionally, but often prefer to prepare there own, even in a social setting. This is driven by culture, not but by money.
- contingencies 13y ago