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The shelf life of most chemical weapons is fairly short -- and tends to be shorter the nastier they are. We're mainly talking mustard gas. Germany did use nerv

The shelf life of most chemical weapons is fairly short -- and tends to be shorter the nastier they are. We're mainly talking mustard gas. Germany did use nerve gases tabun, sarin, and soman [1]. But nerve gases degrade after a period of a few weeks to a few years. I'm not sure what they degrade into, admittedly, and I doubt it's nice. Mustard gas lasts longer, but is also much less potent. Military use is about 1 tonne for 2.6 square kilometres [2]. So if it were just leaking into the open sea -- even one as small as the Baltic -- it wouldn't be an issue. The problem is really if something re-concentrates it -- currents, or location, or possibly going up the food chain (does that happen?) So my initial feeling is it's not quite as catastrophic as it sounds. Would love to hear from somebody better-informed, though. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_and_weapons_of_mass_de... 2 - http://www.iraqwatch.org/perspectives/rangwala-powell-020503.htm http://www.iraqwatch.org/perspectives/rangwala-powell-020503...

whoismua 12y ago
So my initial feeling is it's not quite as catastrophic as it sounds. Would love to hear from somebody better-informed, though. If all is spread evenly. But as you said, currents and other factors might cause troubles in a few areas. Maybe is better to disturb them, or break them open and have as much control it much as they can over this issue.
zokier 12y ago
> Mustard gas lasts longer, but is also much less potent Maybe much less potent in killing instantly (ie in combat use), but what about long-term low-dosage exposure? > possibly going up the food chain (does that happen?) Bio-accumulation in general is very real thing, and imho the most worrisome aspect of this situation.
- abailin 12y ago
  Highly recommended book that touches on bio-accumulation: Zodiac by Neal Stephenson (http://www.amazon.com/Zodiac-Neal-Stephenson/dp/0802143156 http://www.amazon.com/Zodiac-Neal-Stephenson/dp/0802143156)
- maxerickson 12y ago
  I think danohuiginn's question is more whether the bio-accumulation happens faster than whatever degradation. This abstract suggests that bacteria are utilizing the thiodiglycol that the mustard gas ends up releasing into the water: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19481794 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19481794 This one suggests that the thiodiglycol is still harmful: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16393936 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16393936 But that it isn't nearly as harmful as the mustard gas.
- refurb 12y ago
  The issue with chemical weapons is that they are very reactive. Mustard gas would react with the organics floating around in the ocean very quickly. As for the hydrolysis product of mustard gas, thiodiethanol, it's not very toxic. The MSDS claims acute toxicity in rates starts around 6.5g/kg. So a human would need to consume ~500g in order to see toxicity. Also, thiodiethanol is quite reactive itself. It would likely be oxidized to the carboxylic acid. Wouldn't surprise me if bacteria could metabolize it.
  - infinite8s 12y ago
    Yeah, given the existence of life at deep-sea sulfuric vents, I wouldn't be surprised if the newly evolved bioorganisms were colonizing the containers at their leakage points.
    - Carwajalca 12y ago
      There are no deep-sea sulfuric vents in the Baltic Sea.
      - marshray 12y ago
        The point is the ocean is known to contain bacteria which can metabolize chemical sources in the form of sulfur compounds. There's a chance that any slowly leaking CS munitions in the Baltic Sea could host bacterial colonies which break down these compounds.
Shivetya 12y ago
Gulf of Mexico is a big dumping ground too http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/28/14141378-world-war-ii-bombs-mustard-gas-in-gulf-of-mexico-need-to-be-checked-experts-warn?lite http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/28/14141378-world-wa... thirty plus million pounds of assorted weaponary
- shubb 12y ago
  My favourite is the sunken ship packed with explosives in the Thames estuary. As it rusts, it could explode at any time, sending a small tidal wave up the river and into London. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomery
  - toomuchtodo 12y ago
    Some very dark part of me wants to dive this ship.
- digitalengineer 12y ago
  Seems to be the way we dump that stuff. Waters of Italy house a time-bomb as well. http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/21/troubled-waters-the-hidden-legacy-of-chemical-weapons-dumping/ http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/21/troubled-waters-the-hidde... Also: Belgium waters have been a dumping ground for (mustard?)gas.
notastartup 12y ago
What is concerning is the marine life that ends up on people's dinner plates containing such chemicals or some weird disease because of the exposure to it.

whoismua 12y ago

So my initial feeling is it's not quite as catastrophic as it sounds. Would love to hear from somebody better-informed, though. If all is spread evenly. But as you said, currents and other factors might cause troubles in a few areas. Maybe is better to disturb them, or break them open and have as much control it much as they can over this issue.

zokier 12y ago

> Mustard gas lasts longer, but is also much less potent Maybe much less potent in killing instantly (ie in combat use), but what about long-term low-dosage exposure? > possibly going up the food chain (does that happen?) Bio-accumulation in general is very real thing, and imho the most worrisome aspect of this situation.

abailin 12y ago
Highly recommended book that touches on bio-accumulation: Zodiac by Neal Stephenson (http://www.amazon.com/Zodiac-Neal-Stephenson/dp/0802143156 http://www.amazon.com/Zodiac-Neal-Stephenson/dp/0802143156)
maxerickson 12y ago
I think danohuiginn's question is more whether the bio-accumulation happens faster than whatever degradation. This abstract suggests that bacteria are utilizing the thiodiglycol that the mustard gas ends up releasing into the water: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19481794 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19481794 This one suggests that the thiodiglycol is still harmful: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16393936 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16393936 But that it isn't nearly as harmful as the mustard gas.
refurb 12y ago
The issue with chemical weapons is that they are very reactive. Mustard gas would react with the organics floating around in the ocean very quickly. As for the hydrolysis product of mustard gas, thiodiethanol, it's not very toxic. The MSDS claims acute toxicity in rates starts around 6.5g/kg. So a human would need to consume ~500g in order to see toxicity. Also, thiodiethanol is quite reactive itself. It would likely be oxidized to the carboxylic acid. Wouldn't surprise me if bacteria could metabolize it.
- infinite8s 12y ago
  Yeah, given the existence of life at deep-sea sulfuric vents, I wouldn't be surprised if the newly evolved bioorganisms were colonizing the containers at their leakage points.
  - Carwajalca 12y ago
    There are no deep-sea sulfuric vents in the Baltic Sea.
    - marshray 12y ago
      The point is the ocean is known to contain bacteria which can metabolize chemical sources in the form of sulfur compounds. There's a chance that any slowly leaking CS munitions in the Baltic Sea could host bacterial colonies which break down these compounds.

Shivetya 12y ago

Gulf of Mexico is a big dumping ground too http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/28/14141378-world-war-ii-bombs-mustard-gas-in-gulf-of-mexico-need-to-be-checked-experts-warn?lite http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/28/14141378-world-wa... thirty plus million pounds of assorted weaponary

shubb 12y ago
My favourite is the sunken ship packed with explosives in the Thames estuary. As it rusts, it could explode at any time, sending a small tidal wave up the river and into London. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomery
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  Some very dark part of me wants to dive this ship.
digitalengineer 12y ago
Seems to be the way we dump that stuff. Waters of Italy house a time-bomb as well. http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/21/troubled-waters-the-hidden-legacy-of-chemical-weapons-dumping/ http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/21/troubled-waters-the-hidde... Also: Belgium waters have been a dumping ground for (mustard?)gas.

notastartup 12y ago

What is concerning is the marine life that ends up on people's dinner plates containing such chemicals or some weird disease because of the exposure to it.