3 ms·

> ...let's not trot out the "corrupt implementation" defense... If the majority of Islamic countries interpret Islamic law a particular way, it's probably safe

> ...let's not trot out the "corrupt implementation" defense... If the majority of Islamic countries interpret Islamic law a particular way, it's probably safe to criticize Islam on the basis of that interpretation... That's the reason I've stopped getting into arguments with people over the internet regarding Islam; I don't agree with you there. Governments of Islamic countries and their laws influenced by politics and foreign military powers don't make for an accurate source of Islamic law in my opinion.

duncan_bayne 13y ago
Let's take a concrete example, capital punishment for apostasy. "... in all the major schools of law in Islam (Hanafi, Hanbali, Shafii, Maliki and the Shiite Jafari school) there is unanimity that the penalty for apostasy is death. The difference is only whether an apostate is given the opportunity to repent or not, or whether he is given a certain number of days to repent. But it is a fact that Islamic Law demands everywhere that the apostate is put to death." [1] Here is Dr. Mohammad Mukadam, (then) Chairman of the Association of Muslim Schools, stating in debate with Richard Dawkins that the penalty for apostasy is death: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qvWdWZq8To https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qvWdWZq8To Now, let's look at the treatment in law [2]: * Afghanistan – illegal (death penalty, although the U.S. and other coalition members have put pressure that has prevented recent executions) * Egypt – illegal (3 years' imprisonment) * Iran – illegal (death penalty) * Jordan – possibly illegal (fine, jail, child custody loss, marriage annulment) although officials claim otherwise, convictions are recorded for apostasy * Malaysia – illegal in five of 13 states (fine, imprisonment, and flogging) * Mauritania – illegal (death penalty if still apostate after 3 days) * Oman – legal in criminal code, but according to the family code, a father can lose custody of his child * Pakistan – illegal (death penalty since 2007) * Qatar – illegal (death penalty) * Saudi Arabia – illegal (death penalty, although there have been no recently reported executions) * Somalia – illegal (death penalty) * Sudan – illegal (death penalty, although there have only been recent reports of torture, and not of execution) * United Arab Emirates – illegal (3 years' imprisonment, flogging) * Yemen – illegal (death penalty) So. There is complete agreement amongst all major sources of Islamic law that apostasy should be punishable by death; in many Islamic countries it is, and in others it is otherwise punishable. Would you care to provide an "accurate source of Islamic law" that doesn't manifest this particular evil? [1] http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/bassiouni_apostasy.htm http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/bassiouni_a... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#Countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#Countries
- saleemshafi 13y ago
  Wikipedia is far from an "accurate source of Islamic Law", but you seem to be a fan, so here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Opposition_to_execution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Opposition_to... Regardless of whether or not you decide to dismiss these positions as out of the orthodox, it's a logical fallacy to assume that because some Muslim-majority states implement some of the penal code describe in Islam, that any activity by these states is somehow part of or sanctioned by the religion.
  - duncan_bayne 13y ago
    Saleem, you are dodging the question. Every major school of Islamic jurisprudence agrees on the death penalty for apostasy. Certainly there is some opposition but it is far from mainstream, and in a distinct minority. The states that punish apostasy are clearly acting in accordance with Islamic law. I'll ask again: can you cite a school of jurisprudence that opposes the death penalty for apostasy?
  - waps 13y ago
    So are we to understand that when your prophet did this, he was wrong ? That he is not part of your religion ? How exactly does your argument work ? The islamic prophet killed people for apostacy. That's a fact, confirmed by both islamic and non-islamic historical sources. In fact he massacred an entire city for that. So answer the simple question : was that wrong ? Is it okay to kill individuals or massacre cities for apostacy ? If he was wrong, then is there any islamic religion at all ?
    - duncan_bayne 13y ago
      You won't get a reply; Saleem is either a troll, or practicing taqiyya ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya ).

duncan_bayne 13y ago

Let's take a concrete example, capital punishment for apostasy. "... in all the major schools of law in Islam (Hanafi, Hanbali, Shafii, Maliki and the Shiite Jafari school) there is unanimity that the penalty for apostasy is death. The difference is only whether an apostate is given the opportunity to repent or not, or whether he is given a certain number of days to repent. But it is a fact that Islamic Law demands everywhere that the apostate is put to death." [1] Here is Dr. Mohammad Mukadam, (then) Chairman of the Association of Muslim Schools, stating in debate with Richard Dawkins that the penalty for apostasy is death: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qvWdWZq8To https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qvWdWZq8To Now, let's look at the treatment in law [2]: * Afghanistan – illegal (death penalty, although the U.S. and other coalition members have put pressure that has prevented recent executions) * Egypt – illegal (3 years' imprisonment) * Iran – illegal (death penalty) * Jordan – possibly illegal (fine, jail, child custody loss, marriage annulment) although officials claim otherwise, convictions are recorded for apostasy * Malaysia – illegal in five of 13 states (fine, imprisonment, and flogging) * Mauritania – illegal (death penalty if still apostate after 3 days) * Oman – legal in criminal code, but according to the family code, a father can lose custody of his child * Pakistan – illegal (death penalty since 2007) * Qatar – illegal (death penalty) * Saudi Arabia – illegal (death penalty, although there have been no recently reported executions) * Somalia – illegal (death penalty) * Sudan – illegal (death penalty, although there have only been recent reports of torture, and not of execution) * United Arab Emirates – illegal (3 years' imprisonment, flogging) * Yemen – illegal (death penalty) So. There is complete agreement amongst all major sources of Islamic law that apostasy should be punishable by death; in many Islamic countries it is, and in others it is otherwise punishable. Would you care to provide an "accurate source of Islamic law" that doesn't manifest this particular evil? [1] http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/bassiouni_apostasy.htm http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/bassiouni_a... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#Countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#Countries

saleemshafi 13y ago
Wikipedia is far from an "accurate source of Islamic Law", but you seem to be a fan, so here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Opposition_to_execution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Opposition_to... Regardless of whether or not you decide to dismiss these positions as out of the orthodox, it's a logical fallacy to assume that because some Muslim-majority states implement some of the penal code describe in Islam, that any activity by these states is somehow part of or sanctioned by the religion.
- duncan_bayne 13y ago
  Saleem, you are dodging the question. Every major school of Islamic jurisprudence agrees on the death penalty for apostasy. Certainly there is some opposition but it is far from mainstream, and in a distinct minority. The states that punish apostasy are clearly acting in accordance with Islamic law. I'll ask again: can you cite a school of jurisprudence that opposes the death penalty for apostasy?
- waps 13y ago
  So are we to understand that when your prophet did this, he was wrong ? That he is not part of your religion ? How exactly does your argument work ? The islamic prophet killed people for apostacy. That's a fact, confirmed by both islamic and non-islamic historical sources. In fact he massacred an entire city for that. So answer the simple question : was that wrong ? Is it okay to kill individuals or massacre cities for apostacy ? If he was wrong, then is there any islamic religion at all ?
  - duncan_bayne 13y ago
    You won't get a reply; Saleem is either a troll, or practicing taqiyya ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya ).