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I have to respectfully disagree. I have coded for years in a lot of C-style languages, mainly C, Java, Python, Ruby & JavaScript and I've been struggling with t

I have to respectfully disagree. I have coded for years in a lot of C-style languages, mainly C, Java, Python, Ruby & JavaScript and I've been struggling with the Clojure book (and various tutorials) for over a year. It's not just marketing, it's a very different mindset and one I'm not convinced is ever going to appeal to a large class of smart programmers (yes I guess I'm saying I don't think I'm dumb and hope I'm not alone in this feeling). I've heard Lisp described as an autistic language, and I think there's something to that. I don't think it's for everyone. I'm not on board that macros, homoiconicity and some of the other stated benefits of lisps are worth 'giving up syntax' for and I am far from convinced that lisps are the future of programming. I'm a huge fan of Rich Hickey and I want to love Clojure, I just can't. It's not for me and it's not a marketing thing. Rich is the best marketing a language could hope for.

6d0debc071 13y ago
Are you using automatic indentation, parenthesis matching, and highlighting the current s-expression? Lisp environments have, or can be given, a lot of tools to make the syntax easier to follow at first. You may already have heard about those things - but I just thought I'd mention them on the off-chance you haven't. Personally I find the syntax a lot easier to read - less giving up syntax than eliminating what's always looked like a bit of a mess to me ^^ Though, horses for course maybe, as you say.
brudgers 13y ago
I'm a fan of Rich Hickey, too. And I think Clojure is a solid language. But I wouldn't suggest Clojure as the entry point when seeking a overall understanding of Lisp. There's too much baggage and history swirling around it for explanations ever to be comfortable - e.g. even if Rich Hickey always makes convincing arguments, it's important to note that they are always arguments. That is there always seems to be at least as much of a subtext of Clojure defining itself by what it isn't as an explicit statement of what Clojure is. So much of what is said about it is said in the context of "Clojure is not Java, or Haskell, or Scala, or Scheme, or Common Lisp" and because that is so much a part of its culture, it has details drawn from 'the best parts' of each and mashed up. Like Common Lisp, it is a language for working programmers and will trade practical accretion over striving for internal conceptual consistency. Unlike Common Lisp or Scheme, it doesn't have the sort of simple core that lends itself to tutorials from first principles and even if it did, the community tends to be experienced where just jumping into the middle is more the norm. That's nothing against Clojure. It's just that any sort of gentle introduction to Lisp is probably better sought in those places where it already exists - SICP or the Racket ecosystem or Practical Common Lisp or PG's On Lisp are probably better introductions to what makes Lisp different. Clojure is probably a better second Lisp dialect for many people once they are ready for full tilt production code.
- minikomi 13y ago
  In learning Clojure first then Racket, it struck me how many good ideas came from racket.. and now how many are still being mined - typed racket being the obvious one.
  - lispm 13y ago
    I don't know how much Rich Hickey used Racket, but he used Common Lisp for several years and wrote some complex libaries for it. There is also a sketch of Clojure early on written in Common Lisp.
    - hga 13y ago
      Racket started out as a Scheme, and Clojure has mined quite a bit from Scheme. Both are Lisp-1s, loop/recur, not accepting a lot of mainline LISP (e.g. Common Lisp nowadays) baggage, etc.
      - lispm 13y ago
        Actually there is not much Clojure got from Scheme. Lisp 1 is not tied to Scheme. loop/recur is much less powerful than Scheme's TCO.
        hga 13y ago
        Lisp-1 is pretty firmly tied in most people's minds to Scheme: at the very least the paper that coined the terms (http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html) ascribed it to Scheme, and as far as I know it first came from Scheme (although it's so easy to create a low performance Lisp I wouldn't be surprised if that had been tried before). loop/recur is of course much less powerful than TCO, because the JVM doesn't natively support it (it's not trivial, security wise). There are three other Lisps on the JVM that I know of: SISC Scheme is mostly dead but does TCO at a cost in speed, Kawa Scheme has as of late added fine grain control over TCO, and Armed Bear Common Lisp doesn't try, as Common Lisps are not required to. But loop/recur sure looks to be ultimately inspired by Scheme style use of TCO; I just did a set of functions using it for the first time and everything I learned from SICP/6.001 applied and made that part of it trivial.
wonderzombie 13y ago
FWIW, you're learning two major paradigms at once: the immutable/functional paradigm and a Lisp, and Clojure itself has very strong opinions about the former. You'll get a very different feel from, say, Racket. Is there something in particular you're having a hard time with, out of curiosity? I don't consider myself particularly brilliant but I didn't have a year's worth of trouble with Clojure.

6d0debc071 13y ago

Are you using automatic indentation, parenthesis matching, and highlighting the current s-expression? Lisp environments have, or can be given, a lot of tools to make the syntax easier to follow at first. You may already have heard about those things - but I just thought I'd mention them on the off-chance you haven't. Personally I find the syntax a lot easier to read - less giving up syntax than eliminating what's always looked like a bit of a mess to me ^^ Though, horses for course maybe, as you say.

brudgers 13y ago

I'm a fan of Rich Hickey, too. And I think Clojure is a solid language. But I wouldn't suggest Clojure as the entry point when seeking a overall understanding of Lisp. There's too much baggage and history swirling around it for explanations ever to be comfortable - e.g. even if Rich Hickey always makes convincing arguments, it's important to note that they are always arguments. That is there always seems to be at least as much of a subtext of Clojure defining itself by what it isn't as an explicit statement of what Clojure is. So much of what is said about it is said in the context of "Clojure is not Java, or Haskell, or Scala, or Scheme, or Common Lisp" and because that is so much a part of its culture, it has details drawn from 'the best parts' of each and mashed up. Like Common Lisp, it is a language for working programmers and will trade practical accretion over striving for internal conceptual consistency. Unlike Common Lisp or Scheme, it doesn't have the sort of simple core that lends itself to tutorials from first principles and even if it did, the community tends to be experienced where just jumping into the middle is more the norm. That's nothing against Clojure. It's just that any sort of gentle introduction to Lisp is probably better sought in those places where it already exists - SICP or the Racket ecosystem or Practical Common Lisp or PG's On Lisp are probably better introductions to what makes Lisp different. Clojure is probably a better second Lisp dialect for many people once they are ready for full tilt production code.

minikomi 13y ago
In learning Clojure first then Racket, it struck me how many good ideas came from racket.. and now how many are still being mined - typed racket being the obvious one.
- lispm 13y ago
  I don't know how much Rich Hickey used Racket, but he used Common Lisp for several years and wrote some complex libaries for it. There is also a sketch of Clojure early on written in Common Lisp.
  - hga 13y ago
    Racket started out as a Scheme, and Clojure has mined quite a bit from Scheme. Both are Lisp-1s, loop/recur, not accepting a lot of mainline LISP (e.g. Common Lisp nowadays) baggage, etc.
    - lispm 13y ago
      Actually there is not much Clojure got from Scheme. Lisp 1 is not tied to Scheme. loop/recur is much less powerful than Scheme's TCO.
      - hga 13y ago
        Lisp-1 is pretty firmly tied in most people's minds to Scheme: at the very least the paper that coined the terms (http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html) ascribed it to Scheme, and as far as I know it first came from Scheme (although it's so easy to create a low performance Lisp I wouldn't be surprised if that had been tried before). loop/recur is of course much less powerful than TCO, because the JVM doesn't natively support it (it's not trivial, security wise). There are three other Lisps on the JVM that I know of: SISC Scheme is mostly dead but does TCO at a cost in speed, Kawa Scheme has as of late added fine grain control over TCO, and Armed Bear Common Lisp doesn't try, as Common Lisps are not required to. But loop/recur sure looks to be ultimately inspired by Scheme style use of TCO; I just did a set of functions using it for the first time and everything I learned from SICP/6.001 applied and made that part of it trivial.

wonderzombie 13y ago

FWIW, you're learning two major paradigms at once: the immutable/functional paradigm and a Lisp, and Clojure itself has very strong opinions about the former. You'll get a very different feel from, say, Racket. Is there something in particular you're having a hard time with, out of curiosity? I don't consider myself particularly brilliant but I didn't have a year's worth of trouble with Clojure.