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It seems odd to conflate person-on-person crime with a choice to kill one's self. Further, in my limited experience with suicide, firearms are part of the plann

It seems odd to conflate person-on-person crime with a choice to kill one's self. Further, in my limited experience with suicide, firearms are part of the planning process and not the impetus of death. It seems just as likely to me that a 50% reduction in suicide by firearm would be followed by 1000% increase in suicide by hemlock.

rdl 12y ago
I think the question is the substitution effect. If easy access to firearms really did increase the total number of suicides by a substantial amount (i.e. they were more effective, or people were not willing to use other methods), then I'd view it as something specific to firearms. I'm pretty sure there is near 100% substitution, but that firearms are a much more effective method, which accounts for the net difference.
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  Having a gun around is a constant reminder of death in a way that having a rope or a drawer full of kitchen knives is not. The objects in your environment are directly related to the choices available to you and are part of the framework you use when trying to think about what actions to take.
  - rdl 12y ago
    Every gun-owning person I've known who did kill himself actually didn't use a gun (sample set of maybe 5?)
  - paul_f 12y ago
    This is interesting, but I have no idea if it is true or not. Would love to seem some data on this.
    - rdl 12y ago
      The Golden Gate Bridge might be a well studied form of this (it's a fairly common suicide location, and a visible landmark across much of SF). i.e. do people commit suicide more frequently if they have a view of the GG Bridge vs. a view of something else?
      - anateus 12y ago
        Going to link to WP because it links to further sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_barrier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_barrier Looks like it's a combination of factors. The Toronto case I've heard before. Although some substitution took place, overall rate went down.
  - chenelson 12y ago
    Clearly false: In Switzerland, even though one likely posses a gun, one is more likely to use a rope to commit suicide. While we, being simple humans, may project feeling upon an inanimate object, it's a mistake to assume a god's eye view, objectivity, or universal reality. Bringing it back around: Are you suicidal? We're here to help. ;)
    - lotsofmangos 12y ago
      I am not sure that you fully understand my point as the method used is not what I was getting at exactly. Even if the majority of people do not reach for the gun as the method does not say whether the availability of the gun made the suicide more likely. It also matters what you associate with the gun, you could have very different thoughts about a gun kept for hunting deer, than one kept for shooting potential attackers, for instance.
      - chenelson 12y ago
        I read your argument as (1) humans are entangled with the environment and (2) a judgement that guns are related (mind) to death more so than edged weapon or rope (hence my question of your mood or state). Following your logic, shouldn't we expect a higher rate of suicide in Switzerland than the US? As for intentionality, proper reference to cultural symbol and relation, as you state in your last sentence, is essential but seemingly ignored in favor of how one believes, desires.

rdl 12y ago

I think the question is the substitution effect. If easy access to firearms really did increase the total number of suicides by a substantial amount (i.e. they were more effective, or people were not willing to use other methods), then I'd view it as something specific to firearms. I'm pretty sure there is near 100% substitution, but that firearms are a much more effective method, which accounts for the net difference.

lotsofmangos 12y ago
Having a gun around is a constant reminder of death in a way that having a rope or a drawer full of kitchen knives is not. The objects in your environment are directly related to the choices available to you and are part of the framework you use when trying to think about what actions to take.
- rdl 12y ago
  Every gun-owning person I've known who did kill himself actually didn't use a gun (sample set of maybe 5?)
- paul_f 12y ago
  This is interesting, but I have no idea if it is true or not. Would love to seem some data on this.
  - rdl 12y ago
    The Golden Gate Bridge might be a well studied form of this (it's a fairly common suicide location, and a visible landmark across much of SF). i.e. do people commit suicide more frequently if they have a view of the GG Bridge vs. a view of something else?
    - anateus 12y ago
      Going to link to WP because it links to further sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_barrier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_barrier Looks like it's a combination of factors. The Toronto case I've heard before. Although some substitution took place, overall rate went down.
- chenelson 12y ago
  Clearly false: In Switzerland, even though one likely posses a gun, one is more likely to use a rope to commit suicide. While we, being simple humans, may project feeling upon an inanimate object, it's a mistake to assume a god's eye view, objectivity, or universal reality. Bringing it back around: Are you suicidal? We're here to help. ;)
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    I am not sure that you fully understand my point as the method used is not what I was getting at exactly. Even if the majority of people do not reach for the gun as the method does not say whether the availability of the gun made the suicide more likely. It also matters what you associate with the gun, you could have very different thoughts about a gun kept for hunting deer, than one kept for shooting potential attackers, for instance.
    - chenelson 12y ago
      I read your argument as (1) humans are entangled with the environment and (2) a judgement that guns are related (mind) to death more so than edged weapon or rope (hence my question of your mood or state). Following your logic, shouldn't we expect a higher rate of suicide in Switzerland than the US? As for intentionality, proper reference to cultural symbol and relation, as you state in your last sentence, is essential but seemingly ignored in favor of how one believes, desires.