8 ms·

Pretty fair that they blocked it. Its basically an unregulated taxi service. Also the name is terrible for Germany.

by merrua 13y ago

travisp 13y ago
It's worth noting that in this context as far as I can tell, Uber's drivers and cars were regulated and licensed. They are allowed to drive limos for hire, but the law requires them to return to their place of business after a job (they aren't allowed to keep cars sitting around to pick up passengers). The google translation of the main complaint by the taxi association is "they keep taxe similar primarily in downtown ready to spontaneously pick up passengers." In other words, they don't wait to receive a call to get a car close and available to their passengers. So, while it's true that this is probably against the laws of the city, it's hard to see it as anything other than protectionism for taxis: there's no evidence that Uber was causing harm for passengers (or else they'd be talking about this), and there's no reason to believe that making a limo service return its cars to its place of business after each job is inherently better for consumers.
- Xylakant 13y ago
  In this context it's important to note that it's not a city law. Übers drivers violate the Personenbeförderungsgesetz which is a federal law. The injunction might have happened in all german cities, but this specific case seems to be about Berlin only. Most specifically Uber violates §49 ("Verkehr mit Mietomnibussen und mit Mietwagen"), Satz (4) which makes a very clear and distinct case that rental limousines must avoid confusion with Taxis. " Annahme, Vermittlung und Ausführung von Beförderungsaufträgen, das Bereithalten des Mietwagens sowie Werbung für Mietwagenverkehr dürfen weder allein noch in ihrer Verbindung geeignet sein, zur Verwechslung mit dem Taxenverkehr zu führen." The regulations concerning limos for hire are far lower than the regulations concerning cabs, most notably limos for hire are exempt from §21 (Betriebspflicht) and §22 (Beförderungspflicht). Basically cabs have to accept any customer and the law demands that they keep on providing (and even expanding) their service as deemed necessary by the city. It's like saying "oh, regular cars are regulated as well". The cabs in germany are regulated as part of the public transport. Uber tries to skirt that regulation and reap the benefits, while undermining the system - and by doing that they create damage to the consumers. Even if you assume there's no damage to the consumer it's not Uber that gets to decide which law applies and which needs disruption. I could think of a couple of laws that I think need disruption in my line of work (tax law, for example) but I don't get to choose either. http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/pbefg/__49.html http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/pbefg/__49.html
  - vvvv 13y ago
    I completely agree with you. As Uber gets more popular, there's statistically more likelihood for assaults and rapes to happen (it does happen in some countries where taxi services are less regulated). What collateral would a distributed service like Uber have if one or more drivers turned out to be harmful to consumers?
- smackfu 13y ago
  It's interesting that Uber managed to get licensed drivers to ignore the rules of their license.
  - Xylakant 13y ago
    I just had a look at the uber registration page. I don't think you need any kind of license, at least not for UberPop. The only requirements listed are your own car, age 21, a drivers license and that you're out of the probation period for the license. Cab and Limo drivers at least need a Personenbeförderungsschein, but I'm not certain that UberBlack requires that, the wording is unclear ("gewerbliche Zulassung" relates more to tax and business registration for which the Personenbeförderungsschein might be a requirement or not) https://partners.uber.com/signup/berlin/ https://partners.uber.com/signup/berlin/
VMG 13y ago
> Pretty fair that they blocked it. Assuming taxi service regulation is fair of course. Taxis are insanely expensive in Germany.
- aw3c2 13y ago
  Taxi drivers earn really little... I am not sure what price you would find fair?
  - swombat 13y ago
    Depends on the country. As far as I know, at least back when I was a kid, taxi drivers in Geneva earned very well due to the monopoly and limit on numbers. In London, black cab drivers still earn a very decent amount, able to take home £500 on a regular day afaik. http://www.reddit.com/r/london/comments/18oush/how_much_do_taxi_drivers_earn_in_london/ http://www.reddit.com/r/london/comments/18oush/how_much_do_t...
    - aw3c2 13y ago
      Sorry, I was talking about Germany where I personally know the struggle.
- raverbashing 13y ago
  " Taxis are insanely expensive in Germany." What? In Berlin from SXF to the "city center" it will run around 40€, from TXL, around 20€ to 30€ depending, and no tip. (Also both airports are served by public transport) So, no, they are not insanely expensive compared to other places in Europe (and even elsewhere)
  - omnibrain 13y ago
    SXF is not in Berlin. It's even in another german country (Brandenburg). So different regulations apply. TXL should be cheaper, but that depends on the target.
    - 13y ago
arrrg 13y ago
Yeah, seems like a pretty clear-cut violation of the law. You can’t do that. If you think the law sucks then you have to lobby for change, not just violate the law. Also, it’s not like Uber (absolutely terrible name in Germany) offers any advantages over, say, mytaxi (ordering the car with an app, paying with an app), besides maybe price. (And since mytaxi works within the confines of the existing taxi system they can’t really change anything about the price.)
wyager 13y ago
God forbid we have transportation services not beholden to arbitrary regulations built in favor of the existing taxi industry. People use Über because it's better than any regulated taxi service. That is direct, incontrovertible proof that the existing taxi regulations are hurting innovation.
- EliRivers 13y ago
  Arbitrary? While I can't speak for every taxi law in every country, I quite like knowing that the taxi I ride in has to maintain a standard of vehicle and that the driver isn't some chancer on day-release.
  - wyager 13y ago
    That sounds pretty arbitrary to me. What is "a standard of vehicle"? Who defines that? What if I don't mind riding around in a shitty car if I have to pay less? Über also avoids the need for regulation of vehicle quality by having a rating system. There are better, more efficient ways to solve problems like this than by legislating against them.
- EpicEng 13y ago
  Regardless of whether or not you are correct in your assertion that these regulations are arbitrary and exist only to benefit existing taxi companies (which, of course, disagrees with your former claim...), you don't get to break the law because you disagree with it.
  - wyager 13y ago
    > you don't get to break the law because you disagree with it. So I guess MLK should have just accepted the current state of affairs, and Anne Frank should have just turned herself in? The law is not some ultimate moral authority. >these regulations are arbitrary and exist only to benefit existing taxi companies (which, of course, disagrees with your former claim...), "Arbitrary" doesn't just mean "random". It also means "based on whim". There is no contradiction.

Pretty fair that they blocked it. Its basically an unregulated taxi service. Also the name is terrible for Germany.

by merrua 13y ago

Pretty fair that they blocked it. Its basically an unregulated taxi service. Also the name is terrible for Germany.

It's worth noting that in this context as far as I can tell, Uber's drivers and cars were regulated and licensed. They are allowed to drive limos for hire, but the law requires them to return to their place of business after a job (they aren't allowed to keep cars sitting around to pick up passengers). The google translation of the main complaint by the taxi association is "they keep taxe similar primarily in downtown ready to spontaneously pick up passengers." In other words, they don't wait to receive a call to get a car close and available to their passengers. So, while it's true that this is probably against the laws of the city, it's hard to see it as anything other than protectionism for taxis: there's no evidence that Uber was causing harm for passengers (or else they'd be talking about this), and there's no reason to believe that making a limo service return its cars to its place of business after each job is inherently better for consumers.

Xylakant 13y ago
In this context it's important to note that it's not a city law. Übers drivers violate the Personenbeförderungsgesetz which is a federal law. The injunction might have happened in all german cities, but this specific case seems to be about Berlin only. Most specifically Uber violates §49 ("Verkehr mit Mietomnibussen und mit Mietwagen"), Satz (4) which makes a very clear and distinct case that rental limousines must avoid confusion with Taxis. " Annahme, Vermittlung und Ausführung von Beförderungsaufträgen, das Bereithalten des Mietwagens sowie Werbung für Mietwagenverkehr dürfen weder allein noch in ihrer Verbindung geeignet sein, zur Verwechslung mit dem Taxenverkehr zu führen." The regulations concerning limos for hire are far lower than the regulations concerning cabs, most notably limos for hire are exempt from §21 (Betriebspflicht) and §22 (Beförderungspflicht). Basically cabs have to accept any customer and the law demands that they keep on providing (and even expanding) their service as deemed necessary by the city. It's like saying "oh, regular cars are regulated as well". The cabs in germany are regulated as part of the public transport. Uber tries to skirt that regulation and reap the benefits, while undermining the system - and by doing that they create damage to the consumers. Even if you assume there's no damage to the consumer it's not Uber that gets to decide which law applies and which needs disruption. I could think of a couple of laws that I think need disruption in my line of work (tax law, for example) but I don't get to choose either. http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/pbefg/__49.html http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/pbefg/__49.html
- vvvv 13y ago
  I completely agree with you. As Uber gets more popular, there's statistically more likelihood for assaults and rapes to happen (it does happen in some countries where taxi services are less regulated). What collateral would a distributed service like Uber have if one or more drivers turned out to be harmful to consumers?
smackfu 13y ago
It's interesting that Uber managed to get licensed drivers to ignore the rules of their license.
- Xylakant 13y ago
  I just had a look at the uber registration page. I don't think you need any kind of license, at least not for UberPop. The only requirements listed are your own car, age 21, a drivers license and that you're out of the probation period for the license. Cab and Limo drivers at least need a Personenbeförderungsschein, but I'm not certain that UberBlack requires that, the wording is unclear ("gewerbliche Zulassung" relates more to tax and business registration for which the Personenbeförderungsschein might be a requirement or not) https://partners.uber.com/signup/berlin/ https://partners.uber.com/signup/berlin/

VMG 13y ago

> Pretty fair that they blocked it. Assuming taxi service regulation is fair of course. Taxis are insanely expensive in Germany.

aw3c2 13y ago
Taxi drivers earn really little... I am not sure what price you would find fair?
- swombat 13y ago
  Depends on the country. As far as I know, at least back when I was a kid, taxi drivers in Geneva earned very well due to the monopoly and limit on numbers. In London, black cab drivers still earn a very decent amount, able to take home £500 on a regular day afaik. http://www.reddit.com/r/london/comments/18oush/how_much_do_taxi_drivers_earn_in_london/ http://www.reddit.com/r/london/comments/18oush/how_much_do_t...
  - aw3c2 13y ago
    Sorry, I was talking about Germany where I personally know the struggle.
raverbashing 13y ago
" Taxis are insanely expensive in Germany." What? In Berlin from SXF to the "city center" it will run around 40€, from TXL, around 20€ to 30€ depending, and no tip. (Also both airports are served by public transport) So, no, they are not insanely expensive compared to other places in Europe (and even elsewhere)
- omnibrain 13y ago
  SXF is not in Berlin. It's even in another german country (Brandenburg). So different regulations apply. TXL should be cheaper, but that depends on the target.
  - 13y ago

arrrg 13y ago

Yeah, seems like a pretty clear-cut violation of the law. You can’t do that. If you think the law sucks then you have to lobby for change, not just violate the law. Also, it’s not like Uber (absolutely terrible name in Germany) offers any advantages over, say, mytaxi (ordering the car with an app, paying with an app), besides maybe price. (And since mytaxi works within the confines of the existing taxi system they can’t really change anything about the price.)

wyager 13y ago

God forbid we have transportation services not beholden to arbitrary regulations built in favor of the existing taxi industry. People use Über because it's better than any regulated taxi service. That is direct, incontrovertible proof that the existing taxi regulations are hurting innovation.

EliRivers 13y ago
Arbitrary? While I can't speak for every taxi law in every country, I quite like knowing that the taxi I ride in has to maintain a standard of vehicle and that the driver isn't some chancer on day-release.
- wyager 13y ago
  That sounds pretty arbitrary to me. What is "a standard of vehicle"? Who defines that? What if I don't mind riding around in a shitty car if I have to pay less? Über also avoids the need for regulation of vehicle quality by having a rating system. There are better, more efficient ways to solve problems like this than by legislating against them.
EpicEng 13y ago
Regardless of whether or not you are correct in your assertion that these regulations are arbitrary and exist only to benefit existing taxi companies (which, of course, disagrees with your former claim...), you don't get to break the law because you disagree with it.
- wyager 13y ago
  > you don't get to break the law because you disagree with it. So I guess MLK should have just accepted the current state of affairs, and Anne Frank should have just turned herself in? The law is not some ultimate moral authority. >these regulations are arbitrary and exist only to benefit existing taxi companies (which, of course, disagrees with your former claim...), "Arbitrary" doesn't just mean "random". It also means "based on whim". There is no contradiction.