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"I downvoted you because of the offensive generalization you made." Interesting. Why should you be offended? Let's take a look at the statement you quoted as "

"I downvoted you because of the offensive generalization you made." Interesting. Why should you be offended? Let's take a look at the statement you quoted as "offensive". "Indian companies aren't (by and large) startups and/or doing technically sophisticated things , which is what would need great (vs just decent, or worse) engineers." The "by and large" bit of the statement you quoted is a qualifier that means exactly what it says. In other words by saying I am saying (1) Most Indian companies aren't startups. (But a few are). (2) Most Indian companies aren't doing technically sophisticated things. (But a few - in this case a very small minority) are. If you think either of those statements are wrong, please make a counter argument with logic or facts instead of being "offended". I would love to hear a convincing argument that most Indian companies are startups and/or that they are doing technically sophisticated things. That said, downvote away if it makes you happy! I couldn't care less about my karma score! Downvoting is your privilege as a member of HN. Whether you use that privilege blindly or thoughtfully is completely up to you. :-) PS: I am Indian, live and work in India etc, fwiw.

paraschopra 17y ago
(1) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't startups. I don't see how that case is special to India. (2) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't doing technically sophisticated things. I don't see how that case is special to India. Even if data shows otherwise, it is unfair to put a qualifier "by and large" and then start the bashing. That is a safety device you have adopted. It doesn't really matter if you are Indian or not. Your argument should stand for you, not for the country you belong to.
- plinkplonk 17y ago
  "It doesn't really matter if you are Indian or not. Your argument should stand for you, not for the country you belong to" Oh I completely agree. I was just wondering if you thought I was some Non Indian "bashing" Indians. Good to know you are not. "(1) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't startups. I don't see how that case is special to India. (2) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't doing technically sophisticated things. I don't see how that case is special to India." First adressing the point you make above, I did follow up with a paragraph (in the OP) on how Indian companies are mostly outsourcing based or ODC's attempting to do low quality work their parent organizations shift to India. In other words I am making a direct Causal link between the fact that most compoanies in India do bodyshopping/outsourcing to why great enginers find working here frustrating.I've edited the order of paragraphs to represent that emphasis if it weren't clear. You were the one who chose that sentence as specifically "offensive". Pointing out that this isn't specific to India isn't the same as being "offended". If you are saying that there are companies, especially startups in India that match the technological sophistication of say Facebook or Google, I'd love to hear specific cases. I hold my opinions very loosely and am quite willing to be corrected/ That said, "Even if data shows otherwise, it is unfair to put a qualifier "by and large" and then start the bashing. That is a safety device you have adopted." I am not "bashng" anyone. I don't need a "safety device". What I wrote is what I genuinely believe. I am not a politician trying to convince anyone to think as I do! This is a completely wrong argument. What "the data shows" is what is important. Instead of trying to guess my intent ("bashing" , "offending" and so on, without much to base these judgments on), why don't you counter my argument? My argument is that outsourcing companies are very common and sophisticated startups are very very rare (practically no existent and less than say about 15 or so in number at most) in India and consequently there isn't a large market for really good engineers, who mostly migrate to the USA. If you believe I am wrong,here is a challenge for you. why don't you name some Indian startups (say 10 would do) which are (a) funded (b) doing technologically sophisticated software? That way all of us benefit.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    Glusterfs comes to mind. Some of the code from that project is simply way out of the ballpark. Check the 'continuation across network' macro in one of the C header files, if you don't want to take my word for it. It's more sophisticated than anything else that I've seen in a long long time. The stereotypes you are referring to exist but they are not the one and only rule. And weasel words ('the safety device') are not needed, you could simply take your own medicine and do your research yourself, then eat some crow. The Indian software landscape is too large and too diverse to make such sweeping generalizations by one person with a possibly limited view of things. I'd hazard such a statement about my own country, which is a LOT smaller than India. The outsourcing wave has put lots of money into the Indian economy, and just like what happened in Japan after drudgework and copying comes a wave of innovation. You can't stop that cycle. India is not doomed to be an outsourcing venue for ever, they'll be a force to reckon with (and in fact, already are). Expect a large wave of startups from the region in the next 5 years, they have one headstart over everybody else, ramen profitable there means hosting + $500 / month.
    - plinkplonk 17y ago
      @jacquesm Strange that you use GlusterFS as an example.Yes they are technically sophisticated but then I know the CTO of ZResearch (the company offering commercial support for GlusterFS), Anand Babu, personally and he is a good friend. Some of the people who wrote the core code are Indians (including Anand) who live in the United States. Do they have an office in Bangalore? Sure they do. This is the "ODC" model I referred to, where development is done in India because it is cheaper. With that disposed of, "The stereotypes you are referring to exist but they are not the one and only rule." (a) I didn't refer to any "stereortypes" (b) I never claimed this was the "one and only" rule. "you could simply take your own medicine and do your research yourself, then eat some crow." Sure! I'll be glad to when any of my claims is refuted. meanwhile, may I suggest you do the same for using GlusterFS as an example of an Indian startup? ;-). ZResearch (the company offering commercial support for GlusterFS) is very much an American company which has some Indians among its founding members. It was founded in the United States by people who were living there at the time. If any startup having an Indian amongst its founders is an "Indian startup" then sure ZR is "Indian". The decision makers (irrespective of ethnicity) all live in the USA and the core of the code is written in the USA == "American Company" to me whether they have an office in India or not. I suspect this is where we differ. I am confused. you say "The Indian software landscape is too large and too diverse to make such sweeping generalizations by one person with a possibly limited view of things." and then "India is not doomed to be an outsourcing venue for ever, they'll be a force to reckon with (and in fact, already are). Expect a large wave of startups from the region in the next 5 years," Isn't the latter an example of the former? In this case the "one person making generalizations" (about the future in tis case) being you. Nothing wrong with that of course. There are always exceptions to almost any "rule" one can think of. Have you lived or worked in India? How would you know what the "Indian software landscape" looks like? What facts support your contention that list is very "diverse"? I agree that in the future technically sophisticated startups may emerge out of India. In the present such startups are VERY rare. One example of such a startup is "guruji.com" - an Indian search company (I know people who work there). They don't have much traction yet but they do some interesting work . I know a couple of unfunded startups trying to do interesting things. All this doesn't change the fact that the Indian softare industry is largely about outsourcing and most Indian startups largely do not try to do technically sophisticated things. THIS was my contention not "there isn't a single technically sosphisticated startup in India" I maintain there is nothing "offensive" about that idea. it is just the truth. I am surprised people get "offended". If I had ever said "India is doomed to always be an outsourcing destination", I can see how it could offend. Since I never claimed anything like that, (vs people randomly getting "offended" but offering no real counter examples) I don't feel the need to defend an obvious strawman. As to "weasel words" I never knew "most" was a weasel word ;-). I look forward to the day when we all speak in absolutes ;-). OK that said, this argument is now degenerating (indentation depth is a good metric) and so I'll withdraw. (My email is available in my profile for those who would like to take this offline) Anyone reading this please list any great Indian startups you know who are looking for great engineers. This would be very helpful.

paraschopra 17y ago

(1) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't startups. I don't see how that case is special to India. (2) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't doing technically sophisticated things. I don't see how that case is special to India. Even if data shows otherwise, it is unfair to put a qualifier "by and large" and then start the bashing. That is a safety device you have adopted. It doesn't really matter if you are Indian or not. Your argument should stand for you, not for the country you belong to.

plinkplonk 17y ago
"It doesn't really matter if you are Indian or not. Your argument should stand for you, not for the country you belong to" Oh I completely agree. I was just wondering if you thought I was some Non Indian "bashing" Indians. Good to know you are not. "(1) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't startups. I don't see how that case is special to India. (2) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't doing technically sophisticated things. I don't see how that case is special to India." First adressing the point you make above, I did follow up with a paragraph (in the OP) on how Indian companies are mostly outsourcing based or ODC's attempting to do low quality work their parent organizations shift to India. In other words I am making a direct Causal link between the fact that most compoanies in India do bodyshopping/outsourcing to why great enginers find working here frustrating.I've edited the order of paragraphs to represent that emphasis if it weren't clear. You were the one who chose that sentence as specifically "offensive". Pointing out that this isn't specific to India isn't the same as being "offended". If you are saying that there are companies, especially startups in India that match the technological sophistication of say Facebook or Google, I'd love to hear specific cases. I hold my opinions very loosely and am quite willing to be corrected/ That said, "Even if data shows otherwise, it is unfair to put a qualifier "by and large" and then start the bashing. That is a safety device you have adopted." I am not "bashng" anyone. I don't need a "safety device". What I wrote is what I genuinely believe. I am not a politician trying to convince anyone to think as I do! This is a completely wrong argument. What "the data shows" is what is important. Instead of trying to guess my intent ("bashing" , "offending" and so on, without much to base these judgments on), why don't you counter my argument? My argument is that outsourcing companies are very common and sophisticated startups are very very rare (practically no existent and less than say about 15 or so in number at most) in India and consequently there isn't a large market for really good engineers, who mostly migrate to the USA. If you believe I am wrong,here is a challenge for you. why don't you name some Indian startups (say 10 would do) which are (a) funded (b) doing technologically sophisticated software? That way all of us benefit.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  Glusterfs comes to mind. Some of the code from that project is simply way out of the ballpark. Check the 'continuation across network' macro in one of the C header files, if you don't want to take my word for it. It's more sophisticated than anything else that I've seen in a long long time. The stereotypes you are referring to exist but they are not the one and only rule. And weasel words ('the safety device') are not needed, you could simply take your own medicine and do your research yourself, then eat some crow. The Indian software landscape is too large and too diverse to make such sweeping generalizations by one person with a possibly limited view of things. I'd hazard such a statement about my own country, which is a LOT smaller than India. The outsourcing wave has put lots of money into the Indian economy, and just like what happened in Japan after drudgework and copying comes a wave of innovation. You can't stop that cycle. India is not doomed to be an outsourcing venue for ever, they'll be a force to reckon with (and in fact, already are). Expect a large wave of startups from the region in the next 5 years, they have one headstart over everybody else, ramen profitable there means hosting + $500 / month.
  - plinkplonk 17y ago
    @jacquesm Strange that you use GlusterFS as an example.Yes they are technically sophisticated but then I know the CTO of ZResearch (the company offering commercial support for GlusterFS), Anand Babu, personally and he is a good friend. Some of the people who wrote the core code are Indians (including Anand) who live in the United States. Do they have an office in Bangalore? Sure they do. This is the "ODC" model I referred to, where development is done in India because it is cheaper. With that disposed of, "The stereotypes you are referring to exist but they are not the one and only rule." (a) I didn't refer to any "stereortypes" (b) I never claimed this was the "one and only" rule. "you could simply take your own medicine and do your research yourself, then eat some crow." Sure! I'll be glad to when any of my claims is refuted. meanwhile, may I suggest you do the same for using GlusterFS as an example of an Indian startup? ;-). ZResearch (the company offering commercial support for GlusterFS) is very much an American company which has some Indians among its founding members. It was founded in the United States by people who were living there at the time. If any startup having an Indian amongst its founders is an "Indian startup" then sure ZR is "Indian". The decision makers (irrespective of ethnicity) all live in the USA and the core of the code is written in the USA == "American Company" to me whether they have an office in India or not. I suspect this is where we differ. I am confused. you say "The Indian software landscape is too large and too diverse to make such sweeping generalizations by one person with a possibly limited view of things." and then "India is not doomed to be an outsourcing venue for ever, they'll be a force to reckon with (and in fact, already are). Expect a large wave of startups from the region in the next 5 years," Isn't the latter an example of the former? In this case the "one person making generalizations" (about the future in tis case) being you. Nothing wrong with that of course. There are always exceptions to almost any "rule" one can think of. Have you lived or worked in India? How would you know what the "Indian software landscape" looks like? What facts support your contention that list is very "diverse"? I agree that in the future technically sophisticated startups may emerge out of India. In the present such startups are VERY rare. One example of such a startup is "guruji.com" - an Indian search company (I know people who work there). They don't have much traction yet but they do some interesting work . I know a couple of unfunded startups trying to do interesting things. All this doesn't change the fact that the Indian softare industry is largely about outsourcing and most Indian startups largely do not try to do technically sophisticated things. THIS was my contention not "there isn't a single technically sosphisticated startup in India" I maintain there is nothing "offensive" about that idea. it is just the truth. I am surprised people get "offended". If I had ever said "India is doomed to always be an outsourcing destination", I can see how it could offend. Since I never claimed anything like that, (vs people randomly getting "offended" but offering no real counter examples) I don't feel the need to defend an obvious strawman. As to "weasel words" I never knew "most" was a weasel word ;-). I look forward to the day when we all speak in absolutes ;-). OK that said, this argument is now degenerating (indentation depth is a good metric) and so I'll withdraw. (My email is available in my profile for those who would like to take this offline) Anyone reading this please list any great Indian startups you know who are looking for great engineers. This would be very helpful.