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>Indian companies aren't (by and large) startups and/or doing technically sophisticated things , which is what would need great (vs just decent, or worse) engin

>Indian companies aren't (by and large) startups and/or doing technically sophisticated things , which is what would need great (vs just decent, or worse) engineers. I downvoted you because of the offensive generalization you made. I would have appreciated a thoughtful analysis rather than a general bash that your reply seems to be.

plinkplonk 17y ago
"I downvoted you because of the offensive generalization you made." Interesting. Why should you be offended? Let's take a look at the statement you quoted as "offensive". "Indian companies aren't (by and large) startups and/or doing technically sophisticated things , which is what would need great (vs just decent, or worse) engineers." The "by and large" bit of the statement you quoted is a qualifier that means exactly what it says. In other words by saying I am saying (1) Most Indian companies aren't startups. (But a few are). (2) Most Indian companies aren't doing technically sophisticated things. (But a few - in this case a very small minority) are. If you think either of those statements are wrong, please make a counter argument with logic or facts instead of being "offended". I would love to hear a convincing argument that most Indian companies are startups and/or that they are doing technically sophisticated things. That said, downvote away if it makes you happy! I couldn't care less about my karma score! Downvoting is your privilege as a member of HN. Whether you use that privilege blindly or thoughtfully is completely up to you. :-) PS: I am Indian, live and work in India etc, fwiw.
- paraschopra 17y ago
  (1) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't startups. I don't see how that case is special to India. (2) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't doing technically sophisticated things. I don't see how that case is special to India. Even if data shows otherwise, it is unfair to put a qualifier "by and large" and then start the bashing. That is a safety device you have adopted. It doesn't really matter if you are Indian or not. Your argument should stand for you, not for the country you belong to.
  - plinkplonk 17y ago
    "It doesn't really matter if you are Indian or not. Your argument should stand for you, not for the country you belong to" Oh I completely agree. I was just wondering if you thought I was some Non Indian "bashing" Indians. Good to know you are not. "(1) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't startups. I don't see how that case is special to India. (2) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't doing technically sophisticated things. I don't see how that case is special to India." First adressing the point you make above, I did follow up with a paragraph (in the OP) on how Indian companies are mostly outsourcing based or ODC's attempting to do low quality work their parent organizations shift to India. In other words I am making a direct Causal link between the fact that most compoanies in India do bodyshopping/outsourcing to why great enginers find working here frustrating.I've edited the order of paragraphs to represent that emphasis if it weren't clear. You were the one who chose that sentence as specifically "offensive". Pointing out that this isn't specific to India isn't the same as being "offended". If you are saying that there are companies, especially startups in India that match the technological sophistication of say Facebook or Google, I'd love to hear specific cases. I hold my opinions very loosely and am quite willing to be corrected/ That said, "Even if data shows otherwise, it is unfair to put a qualifier "by and large" and then start the bashing. That is a safety device you have adopted." I am not "bashng" anyone. I don't need a "safety device". What I wrote is what I genuinely believe. I am not a politician trying to convince anyone to think as I do! This is a completely wrong argument. What "the data shows" is what is important. Instead of trying to guess my intent ("bashing" , "offending" and so on, without much to base these judgments on), why don't you counter my argument? My argument is that outsourcing companies are very common and sophisticated startups are very very rare (practically no existent and less than say about 15 or so in number at most) in India and consequently there isn't a large market for really good engineers, who mostly migrate to the USA. If you believe I am wrong,here is a challenge for you. why don't you name some Indian startups (say 10 would do) which are (a) funded (b) doing technologically sophisticated software? That way all of us benefit.
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      Glusterfs comes to mind. Some of the code from that project is simply way out of the ballpark. Check the 'continuation across network' macro in one of the C header files, if you don't want to take my word for it. It's more sophisticated than anything else that I've seen in a long long time. The stereotypes you are referring to exist but they are not the one and only rule. And weasel words ('the safety device') are not needed, you could simply take your own medicine and do your research yourself, then eat some crow. The Indian software landscape is too large and too diverse to make such sweeping generalizations by one person with a possibly limited view of things. I'd hazard such a statement about my own country, which is a LOT smaller than India. The outsourcing wave has put lots of money into the Indian economy, and just like what happened in Japan after drudgework and copying comes a wave of innovation. You can't stop that cycle. India is not doomed to be an outsourcing venue for ever, they'll be a force to reckon with (and in fact, already are). Expect a large wave of startups from the region in the next 5 years, they have one headstart over everybody else, ramen profitable there means hosting + $500 / month.

plinkplonk 17y ago

"I downvoted you because of the offensive generalization you made." Interesting. Why should you be offended? Let's take a look at the statement you quoted as "offensive". "Indian companies aren't (by and large) startups and/or doing technically sophisticated things , which is what would need great (vs just decent, or worse) engineers." The "by and large" bit of the statement you quoted is a qualifier that means exactly what it says. In other words by saying I am saying (1) Most Indian companies aren't startups. (But a few are). (2) Most Indian companies aren't doing technically sophisticated things. (But a few - in this case a very small minority) are. If you think either of those statements are wrong, please make a counter argument with logic or facts instead of being "offended". I would love to hear a convincing argument that most Indian companies are startups and/or that they are doing technically sophisticated things. That said, downvote away if it makes you happy! I couldn't care less about my karma score! Downvoting is your privilege as a member of HN. Whether you use that privilege blindly or thoughtfully is completely up to you. :-) PS: I am Indian, live and work in India etc, fwiw.

paraschopra 17y ago
(1) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't startups. I don't see how that case is special to India. (2) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't doing technically sophisticated things. I don't see how that case is special to India. Even if data shows otherwise, it is unfair to put a qualifier "by and large" and then start the bashing. That is a safety device you have adopted. It doesn't really matter if you are Indian or not. Your argument should stand for you, not for the country you belong to.
- plinkplonk 17y ago
  "It doesn't really matter if you are Indian or not. Your argument should stand for you, not for the country you belong to" Oh I completely agree. I was just wondering if you thought I was some Non Indian "bashing" Indians. Good to know you are not. "(1) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't startups. I don't see how that case is special to India. (2) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't doing technically sophisticated things. I don't see how that case is special to India." First adressing the point you make above, I did follow up with a paragraph (in the OP) on how Indian companies are mostly outsourcing based or ODC's attempting to do low quality work their parent organizations shift to India. In other words I am making a direct Causal link between the fact that most compoanies in India do bodyshopping/outsourcing to why great enginers find working here frustrating.I've edited the order of paragraphs to represent that emphasis if it weren't clear. You were the one who chose that sentence as specifically "offensive". Pointing out that this isn't specific to India isn't the same as being "offended". If you are saying that there are companies, especially startups in India that match the technological sophistication of say Facebook or Google, I'd love to hear specific cases. I hold my opinions very loosely and am quite willing to be corrected/ That said, "Even if data shows otherwise, it is unfair to put a qualifier "by and large" and then start the bashing. That is a safety device you have adopted." I am not "bashng" anyone. I don't need a "safety device". What I wrote is what I genuinely believe. I am not a politician trying to convince anyone to think as I do! This is a completely wrong argument. What "the data shows" is what is important. Instead of trying to guess my intent ("bashing" , "offending" and so on, without much to base these judgments on), why don't you counter my argument? My argument is that outsourcing companies are very common and sophisticated startups are very very rare (practically no existent and less than say about 15 or so in number at most) in India and consequently there isn't a large market for really good engineers, who mostly migrate to the USA. If you believe I am wrong,here is a challenge for you. why don't you name some Indian startups (say 10 would do) which are (a) funded (b) doing technologically sophisticated software? That way all of us benefit.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    Glusterfs comes to mind. Some of the code from that project is simply way out of the ballpark. Check the 'continuation across network' macro in one of the C header files, if you don't want to take my word for it. It's more sophisticated than anything else that I've seen in a long long time. The stereotypes you are referring to exist but they are not the one and only rule. And weasel words ('the safety device') are not needed, you could simply take your own medicine and do your research yourself, then eat some crow. The Indian software landscape is too large and too diverse to make such sweeping generalizations by one person with a possibly limited view of things. I'd hazard such a statement about my own country, which is a LOT smaller than India. The outsourcing wave has put lots of money into the Indian economy, and just like what happened in Japan after drudgework and copying comes a wave of innovation. You can't stop that cycle. India is not doomed to be an outsourcing venue for ever, they'll be a force to reckon with (and in fact, already are). Expect a large wave of startups from the region in the next 5 years, they have one headstart over everybody else, ramen profitable there means hosting + $500 / month.