4 ms·

One of the most amazing quarks of the American legal system is how you can rescind, revoke, and give away your rights which are protected by that very same lega

One of the most amazing quarks of the American legal system is how you can rescind, revoke, and give away your rights which are protected by that very same legal system, and it's all perfectly legal to do so.

brianchu 12y ago
IANAL, but a company claiming that you give up your rights is not the same thing as you actually giving up your rights. All these companies are essentially doing is claiming that you are giving up your rights. It remains to be seen whether these provisions will actually hold up with legal force in court (I doubt most of them will).
- jeffdavis 12y ago
  There has to be a better way than just floating in a grey area and hoping the courts agree with you. I think the states need to set up some basic standards for how some of these agreements need to happen, and make them very clear. For instance, there could be a law that if you sign away your right to sue, it must be in writing.
  - qq66 12y ago
    The courts have established that certain contracts are simply invalid by their nature, and many instances of "signing away your right to sue" fall in this category. The real reason that companies have you do this is to reduce the chance that you'll sue, not reduce the effectiveness of such a lawsuit.
    - Sharlin 12y ago
      The real WTF is that outright lying to the customer in such a manner is legal at all.
      - thaumasiotes 12y ago
        The idea of a penalty for offering terms that a reasonable lawyer could have told you ahead of time were unenforceable appeals to me too. I think it could use a little more thought, but frankly I'm surprised it doesn't see broader discussion (if it does, I'm missing it).
        qq66 12y ago
        In some situations (not sure which), having one part of a contract ruled unenforceable makes other parts unenforceable.
        thaumasiotes 12y ago
        I believe (could be wrong) that that is "true in the general case". However, in the actual general case, a contract includes a "severability clause" specifically providing that invalid provisions do not render other provisions invalid.
    - jeffdavis 12y ago
      "The courts have established" Why not make it a crystal-clear law, so that an ordinary citizen can understand without having to dig through case law and see what applies to their situation.
      - dragonwriter 12y ago
        > Why not make it a crystal-clear law Because its an application of existing laws, and creating a separate law for it would be much the same problem in law as excessively tight coupling is in software development. > so that an ordinary citizen can understand without having to dig through case law and see what applies to their situation. Because making the ordinary citizen have to dig through statute law isn't much different, and because unless all change to all other laws that might interact with it and have apparent conflicts that might need to be resolved by the courts stopped (which it wouldn't), the ordinary citizen would still need to dig through case law to know what it meant in practice.
- tombrossman 12y ago
  I think that's right, companies may have figured out that a decent percentage of people who have a valid right to make a claim against them will simply give up and go away when they see such a notice. Signs or a disclaimer in a contract are cheap to add and scale well. An example many people are familiar with are parking lots which display signs with 'We accept no liability...' or similar language. I had my car parked at a hotel in a direct line of sight and close to the front desk and it was vandalised by two men attempting to steal it. They had the hood up, trying to defeat the security system and were trying to saw through the steering wheel to remove a 'Club' steering lock for over an hour while I slept. All of this plus bored front desk attendants on CCTV. I woke up to find this in the morning and asked the hotel about it. They acknowledged seeing what happened and admitted doing nothing. This was a nice car at a luxury hotel, too! I informed the manager they would be taking responsibility for the damage and he did the usual 'We aren't liable' nonsense. I sued in small claims court and won a judgement and collected. The hotel is probably still ahead of the game by denying others' claims, but I challenged this and won. I hope more people will try it too.
- jamesbrownuhh 12y ago
  There is a phrase in the UK which you see a lot in small print - "Your statutory rights are not affected." Because, after all, your statutory rights are the law, and small print can't take that away from you, no matter how much "even thinking about buying our cereal creates a binding legal contract between us" or other such horseshit.
  - vacri 12y ago
    I'm told that in my state (Victoria) prenuptial agreements carry no legal weight. There are laws to divide up the estate in the case of a divorce, and private contracts cannot override laws. A prenup can of course be voluntarily honoured, just not legally enforced.
  - kyllo 12y ago
    I think the US equivalent is "void where prohibited." This is almost always seen at the end of fine-print legal language that corporations write.

brianchu 12y ago

IANAL, but a company claiming that you give up your rights is not the same thing as you actually giving up your rights. All these companies are essentially doing is claiming that you are giving up your rights. It remains to be seen whether these provisions will actually hold up with legal force in court (I doubt most of them will).

jeffdavis 12y ago
There has to be a better way than just floating in a grey area and hoping the courts agree with you. I think the states need to set up some basic standards for how some of these agreements need to happen, and make them very clear. For instance, there could be a law that if you sign away your right to sue, it must be in writing.
- qq66 12y ago
  The courts have established that certain contracts are simply invalid by their nature, and many instances of "signing away your right to sue" fall in this category. The real reason that companies have you do this is to reduce the chance that you'll sue, not reduce the effectiveness of such a lawsuit.
  - Sharlin 12y ago
    The real WTF is that outright lying to the customer in such a manner is legal at all.
    - thaumasiotes 12y ago
      The idea of a penalty for offering terms that a reasonable lawyer could have told you ahead of time were unenforceable appeals to me too. I think it could use a little more thought, but frankly I'm surprised it doesn't see broader discussion (if it does, I'm missing it).
      - qq66 12y ago
        In some situations (not sure which), having one part of a contract ruled unenforceable makes other parts unenforceable.
        thaumasiotes 12y ago
        I believe (could be wrong) that that is "true in the general case". However, in the actual general case, a contract includes a "severability clause" specifically providing that invalid provisions do not render other provisions invalid.
  - jeffdavis 12y ago
    "The courts have established" Why not make it a crystal-clear law, so that an ordinary citizen can understand without having to dig through case law and see what applies to their situation.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      > Why not make it a crystal-clear law Because its an application of existing laws, and creating a separate law for it would be much the same problem in law as excessively tight coupling is in software development. > so that an ordinary citizen can understand without having to dig through case law and see what applies to their situation. Because making the ordinary citizen have to dig through statute law isn't much different, and because unless all change to all other laws that might interact with it and have apparent conflicts that might need to be resolved by the courts stopped (which it wouldn't), the ordinary citizen would still need to dig through case law to know what it meant in practice.
tombrossman 12y ago
I think that's right, companies may have figured out that a decent percentage of people who have a valid right to make a claim against them will simply give up and go away when they see such a notice. Signs or a disclaimer in a contract are cheap to add and scale well. An example many people are familiar with are parking lots which display signs with 'We accept no liability...' or similar language. I had my car parked at a hotel in a direct line of sight and close to the front desk and it was vandalised by two men attempting to steal it. They had the hood up, trying to defeat the security system and were trying to saw through the steering wheel to remove a 'Club' steering lock for over an hour while I slept. All of this plus bored front desk attendants on CCTV. I woke up to find this in the morning and asked the hotel about it. They acknowledged seeing what happened and admitted doing nothing. This was a nice car at a luxury hotel, too! I informed the manager they would be taking responsibility for the damage and he did the usual 'We aren't liable' nonsense. I sued in small claims court and won a judgement and collected. The hotel is probably still ahead of the game by denying others' claims, but I challenged this and won. I hope more people will try it too.
jamesbrownuhh 12y ago
There is a phrase in the UK which you see a lot in small print - "Your statutory rights are not affected." Because, after all, your statutory rights are the law, and small print can't take that away from you, no matter how much "even thinking about buying our cereal creates a binding legal contract between us" or other such horseshit.
- vacri 12y ago
  I'm told that in my state (Victoria) prenuptial agreements carry no legal weight. There are laws to divide up the estate in the case of a divorce, and private contracts cannot override laws. A prenup can of course be voluntarily honoured, just not legally enforced.
- kyllo 12y ago
  I think the US equivalent is "void where prohibited." This is almost always seen at the end of fine-print legal language that corporations write.