5 ms·

Hey Gabemart, original author here. I understand your objection. The term 'freeloader' was used because they're taking stuff for free with no expectation to p

Hey Gabemart, original author here. I understand your objection. The term 'freeloader' was used because they're taking stuff for free with no expectation to pay anything in the future. Also, an article that attracts discussion is a good thing, right? :) [edited]

nodata 12y ago
It's probably not a good idea to reply to people giving you useful feedback by telling them they are "dramatizing".
- liamgooding 12y ago
  Noted, yeah was a bit 'keyboard warrior' on my part actually. No offense intended. But yeah I didn't want to have a "meta" discussion and miss the point of the article
edanm 12y ago
Just wanted to note that I also disliked that term. And believe me, I couldn't agree with the article more, I was nodding my head vigorously throughout my reading, I bookmarked the article to Evernote as a reference for anyone I talk to about this in the future (and I talk about this with a lot of people, making exactly your arguments). So I couldn't be more "pro", but I also immediately thought "freeloader is not a nice term". It could just be my "the internets will hate this" spidey-sense, but in this case I think the internets are right - it really is an offensive term in more places.
- liamgooding 12y ago
  Does a unicorn lose it's rainbow if I just go ahead and edit the original article? Never too sure once something has been discussed whether it's cool to revise the original source...
  - dspillett 12y ago
    Make sure you clearly label the edited version as such (perhaps add a "revisions" section at the bottom listing each version and the changes between them like: 2014-04-14 @12:34: Original publication 2014-04-14 @17:00: Spelling and grammar fixes 2014-04-15 @13:00: Updated wording to avoid terms potentially seen as insulting ... ... ... Better yet, include the earlier versions and link to them in that change log. This way you are improving the article yet there is no way (unless you deliberately skip bits in the changelog) people can legitimately accuse you of trying to brush things under the carpet (because everything you edited out to improve things is still there for all to see (and find easily) should they care). Also make sure you add a message indicating "this is an older version of the article, see link for the latest revision" to the old versions so people coming in to the wrong place from a search result know where best to go.
    - liamgooding 12y ago
      Thankyou!
jpeg_hero 12y ago
I like you using the term freeloader ... I get it, you're pushing people to think in a different way. Ignore this stick in the MUDs :) great article.
AhtiK 12y ago
So we are all 'freeloaders' at HN, right? :) 'freeloader' is a subjective term with emphasis on negative: "someone who is a waste of air and takes up valuable space on the planet earth" [1]. But I sure understand the need to be provocative. Also if you are not trying to convert free users into paying then feel free to insult them. If trying to convert them to paying customer then it pays to play nice :-) Imagine sending e-mail "Hey freeloader, start paying so we can build a valuable product or go away" vs "Hey user. Just wanted to let you know that we thrive to build a valuable product that makes the best sense for you. At the same time it has become hard to manage free user needs together with the needs of premium tier customers. I invite you to upgrade to paid plan to enjoy all the extra magic. Your input has been invaluable and here's a xx discount valid for 1 week. Let me know if you need more time to decide." [1] http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=freeloader http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=freeloader
berkay 12y ago
An article attracts discussion is good? sure. I did not know about trak.io, now I do. The attitude in the article towards "freeloaders"? not so good. I won't argue whether it is better or not to have a freemium for "your" company. But commitment should not be broken so nonchalantly. Did you at least grandfather beta customers to a free plan? If not, you did a bait and switch, and that does not make me wanna do business with you (and I would have become a paying customer).
- liamgooding 12y ago
  Hi, original author here. Actually yes, all the beta users who are engaging in conversation with us over this are actually been offered free plans where it's appropriate anyway. i.e. open source projects, developers writing plugins, university/college students, developers testing Trak.io for their employers etc.
- dzabriskie 12y ago
  Yep, it's bait and switch, their "Priority Access Beta email" promised a free plan [0]. I actually _paid_ $29 for priority access to their beta, but never got around to installing their code; after seeing this I don't plan on it. [0] http://i.imgur.com/cLSxw5m.png http://i.imgur.com/cLSxw5m.png
rsobers 12y ago
> The term 'freeloader' was used because they're taking stuff for free with no expectation to pay anything in the future. You set this expectation yourself by offering a free plan, no?
- liamgooding 12y ago
  Yes we offered a free Beta, but as we discussed in this article we intended to make the product 'Freemium' but realised we were going into the trap of 'Free'. As a young and early stage team, we made some assumptions, and got some stuff wrong. We need to make changes and decisions that can guarantee we create a sustainable business, one where we can keep the lights on :-)

nodata 12y ago

It's probably not a good idea to reply to people giving you useful feedback by telling them they are "dramatizing".

liamgooding 12y ago
Noted, yeah was a bit 'keyboard warrior' on my part actually. No offense intended. But yeah I didn't want to have a "meta" discussion and miss the point of the article

edanm 12y ago

Just wanted to note that I also disliked that term. And believe me, I couldn't agree with the article more, I was nodding my head vigorously throughout my reading, I bookmarked the article to Evernote as a reference for anyone I talk to about this in the future (and I talk about this with a lot of people, making exactly your arguments). So I couldn't be more "pro", but I also immediately thought "freeloader is not a nice term". It could just be my "the internets will hate this" spidey-sense, but in this case I think the internets are right - it really is an offensive term in more places.

liamgooding 12y ago
Does a unicorn lose it's rainbow if I just go ahead and edit the original article? Never too sure once something has been discussed whether it's cool to revise the original source...
- dspillett 12y ago
  Make sure you clearly label the edited version as such (perhaps add a "revisions" section at the bottom listing each version and the changes between them like: 2014-04-14 @12:34: Original publication 2014-04-14 @17:00: Spelling and grammar fixes 2014-04-15 @13:00: Updated wording to avoid terms potentially seen as insulting ... ... ... Better yet, include the earlier versions and link to them in that change log. This way you are improving the article yet there is no way (unless you deliberately skip bits in the changelog) people can legitimately accuse you of trying to brush things under the carpet (because everything you edited out to improve things is still there for all to see (and find easily) should they care). Also make sure you add a message indicating "this is an older version of the article, see link for the latest revision" to the old versions so people coming in to the wrong place from a search result know where best to go.
  - liamgooding 12y ago
    Thankyou!

jpeg_hero 12y ago

I like you using the term freeloader ... I get it, you're pushing people to think in a different way. Ignore this stick in the MUDs :) great article.

AhtiK 12y ago

So we are all 'freeloaders' at HN, right? :) 'freeloader' is a subjective term with emphasis on negative: "someone who is a waste of air and takes up valuable space on the planet earth" [1]. But I sure understand the need to be provocative. Also if you are not trying to convert free users into paying then feel free to insult them. If trying to convert them to paying customer then it pays to play nice :-) Imagine sending e-mail "Hey freeloader, start paying so we can build a valuable product or go away" vs "Hey user. Just wanted to let you know that we thrive to build a valuable product that makes the best sense for you. At the same time it has become hard to manage free user needs together with the needs of premium tier customers. I invite you to upgrade to paid plan to enjoy all the extra magic. Your input has been invaluable and here's a xx discount valid for 1 week. Let me know if you need more time to decide." [1] http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=freeloader http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=freeloader

berkay 12y ago

An article attracts discussion is good? sure. I did not know about trak.io, now I do. The attitude in the article towards "freeloaders"? not so good. I won't argue whether it is better or not to have a freemium for "your" company. But commitment should not be broken so nonchalantly. Did you at least grandfather beta customers to a free plan? If not, you did a bait and switch, and that does not make me wanna do business with you (and I would have become a paying customer).

liamgooding 12y ago
Hi, original author here. Actually yes, all the beta users who are engaging in conversation with us over this are actually been offered free plans where it's appropriate anyway. i.e. open source projects, developers writing plugins, university/college students, developers testing Trak.io for their employers etc.
dzabriskie 12y ago
Yep, it's bait and switch, their "Priority Access Beta email" promised a free plan [0]. I actually _paid_ $29 for priority access to their beta, but never got around to installing their code; after seeing this I don't plan on it. [0] http://i.imgur.com/cLSxw5m.png http://i.imgur.com/cLSxw5m.png

rsobers 12y ago

> The term 'freeloader' was used because they're taking stuff for free with no expectation to pay anything in the future. You set this expectation yourself by offering a free plan, no?

liamgooding 12y ago
Yes we offered a free Beta, but as we discussed in this article we intended to make the product 'Freemium' but realised we were going into the trap of 'Free'. As a young and early stage team, we made some assumptions, and got some stuff wrong. We need to make changes and decisions that can guarantee we create a sustainable business, one where we can keep the lights on :-)