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I disagree. Your employer is sponsoring a lot of your learnings in a specific area, so he's entitled to all your ideas in that area, that's what your paid for.

I disagree. Your employer is sponsoring a lot of your learnings in a specific area, so he's entitled to all your ideas in that area, that's what your paid for. It would be extremely easy to just keep your best ideas for "your" project and not use them in your work project. The construction company would have a valid claim if you stole the blueprints at work.

masklinn 13y ago
> Your employer is sponsoring a lot of your learnings in a specific area, so he's entitled to all your ideas in that area No, he is not on either count. > that's what your paid for. I don't know you, but I'm paid for the work I produce, I'd be really happy if I could be paid for learning stuff and not doing shit. > The construction company would have a valid claim if you stole the blueprints at work. Yes. It would not have a valid claim if you built stuff on the side, even if it's better stuff. Your company does not own your knowledge, which is why non-compete agreements are invalid in just about all jurisdictions unless very heavily compensated (in Germany it's at least 50% of gross and no more than 2 years, and clauses can still be found unreasonable and invalidated).
- stackcollision 13y ago
  When he says that the employer is sponsoring learning in that company's particular area, he is right. Learning is not just sitting down with a textbook and taking notes. In most jobs, especially computer science, you're learning every day. You're adapting new solutions to problems, and taking that experience with you. That knowledge can then be applied to future problems. His company is paying him to solve problems in a particular space. Once he solves them, he knows how to solve them in the future. When working on an OSS project in the same space, he can apply the techniques he learned at his job to that project.
- Xylakant 13y ago
  > I don't know you, but I'm paid for the work I produce, I'd be really happy if I could be paid for learning stuff and not doing shit. Your employer does not pay the time you spend on work-related research (or even general research)? Change job. It's part of what programmers do - find solutions to problems, and since most problems we're facing are variations of problems other people already solved research and learning about possible solutions are an important part of our work, I'd even say the most critical part. I'm happy to compensate my employees for that. > which is why non-compete agreements are invalid There's no noncompete clause being discussed here. It's basically a case of "I'm building the same product as at work, just for free" and the guy is making a direct competitor to his employer. Sorry, if one of my employees did build a competing product while being employed here without explicit permission, I'd fire him. If the guy build something mostly unrelated to his work, I'd totally agree with him, but the way this case looks like, no, I'm not.
- gamblor956 13y ago
  In the US, most white-collar jobs have contractual clauses that grant the employer rights to IP produced by the employee, even after work hours, if such IP relates to the work the employee performs for the employer. These clauses are enforceable in every state, though some states such as California limit the breadth of "related" to the specific industry or industries in which the employer operates.
- Twirrim 13y ago
  > > Your employer is sponsoring a lot of your learnings in a specific area, so he's entitled to all your ideas in that area > No, he is not on either count. Yes they are... are you honestly trying to tell us you've learned jack all at your current employer? No new frameworks, coding practices, algorithms? Learnt absolutely nothing about how various patterns of software writing pan out in production? If you've learned absolutely nothing, you have to be one of the most useless developers your employer has. I find that impossible to believe. > > that's what your paid for. > I don't know you, but I'm paid for the work I produce, I'd be really happy if I could be paid for learning stuff and not doing shit. No, you're being paid for your skills and abilities. That includes your learning ability. It's not "learning stuff and not doing shit", it's "learn stuff as you're doing shit". Everyone does it. A company can't guarantee where or what it's going to be working on next year or so, the market always changes. What they do have is staff capital, including hopefully a team of capable programmers that can do whatever the changing market requires, be it picking up a new language, optimising algorithms, etc. That's what people hiring and employing staff are looking for. If you're not bringing all your abilities to the job, including your ability to learn, then you've been working under really crappy bosses who have been letting you get away with it. In this particular case he's working on a CI system both in his day job and his out-of-hours work. Are you seriously trying to tell us he learned absolutely nothing about CI during the day time, and only learned stuff out-of-hours? That he gained absolutely nothing from his colleagues? Operational aspects of the software? UI?
- jrs99 13y ago
  I think the legality matters less and having feelings hurt matters more. If someone pays you to build something, and you build a free version on the side, they're really subsidizing a free competitor to their product. That's going to hurt people's feelings. And they're going to want to hurt your feelings too, maybe by burying you in paperwork.
motters 13y ago
The employer is not "sponsoring your learnings", they're purchasing your time and labour (if you're a regular employee). What you do outside of the scope of the contract of employment is your own.
cs02rm0 13y ago
I disagree. Your employer is sponsoring a lot of your learnings in a specific area, so he's entitled to all your ideas in that area, that's what your paid for. Absolutely not, you're paid for your time, not your thoughts!
- Xylakant 13y ago
  > Absolutely not, you're paid for your time, not your thoughts! Are you? I pay my employees for the value they create for the company, not to warm the chair at the office eight hours on five days a week. If someone is more productive in four hours a day than someone else at eight hours, well, go home after four, still get paid more. Fine with me.
mindcrime 13y ago
Your employer is sponsoring a lot of your learnings in a specific area "Some" maybe, but probably not "a lot". so he's entitled to all your ideas in that area, that's what your paid for. I'd argue that, in general, this is wrong. Most companies pay based on the idea that you work approximately a 40hr work week. Certainly most of us negotiate salary based on this assumption. But if a company wants all of the ideas from my brain, 24x7, they are going to have to pay a lot more. Like, 4 or 5 times more, and that's just as a starting point. It would be extremely easy to just keep your best ideas for "your" project and not use them in your work project. As long as your employer is happy with the results you're delivering, does it matter if they're getting your "best" ideas or not?
watwut 13y ago
"Your employer is sponsoring a lot of your learnings in a specific area, so he's entitled to all your ideas in that area" No way. Employer is not entitled to all java code just because he paid me to java certification. Employer to all my products forever just because he paid my college or whatever. "that's what your paid for" I am paid for work done for employer. I'm not own by him. "It would be extremely easy to just keep your best ideas for "your" project and not use them in your work project." Well, then your workplace contribution would be lower then the contribution of your collegues. I would expect you to have lower salary or be fired if you contribute too little. The same way as if you would never had the idea in the first place. "The construction company would have a valid claim if you stole the blueprints at work." However, the construction company would NOT have a valid claim if I would make my own blueprints at home.
- Xylakant 13y ago
  > No way. Employer is not entitled to all java code just because he paid me to java certification. Employer to all my products forever just because he paid my college or whatever. Your understanding of "specific area" is quite broad. I thought more along the lines "his employer paid him to do research and development for CI-Systems", so he should not in his spare time build a competing CI-System. > I am paid for work done for employer. I'm not own by him. Where did I say so? You're certainly not owned by your employer, you're not a slave. But you can't go and build the same thing at home and give it away for free as you're building at work and get paid for. Even for a construction guy that would be a problem. Undercutting your employer with knowledge gained at work? Do you think any employer would be fine with that?

masklinn 13y ago

> Your employer is sponsoring a lot of your learnings in a specific area, so he's entitled to all your ideas in that area No, he is not on either count. > that's what your paid for. I don't know you, but I'm paid for the work I produce, I'd be really happy if I could be paid for learning stuff and not doing shit. > The construction company would have a valid claim if you stole the blueprints at work. Yes. It would not have a valid claim if you built stuff on the side, even if it's better stuff. Your company does not own your knowledge, which is why non-compete agreements are invalid in just about all jurisdictions unless very heavily compensated (in Germany it's at least 50% of gross and no more than 2 years, and clauses can still be found unreasonable and invalidated).

stackcollision 13y ago
When he says that the employer is sponsoring learning in that company's particular area, he is right. Learning is not just sitting down with a textbook and taking notes. In most jobs, especially computer science, you're learning every day. You're adapting new solutions to problems, and taking that experience with you. That knowledge can then be applied to future problems. His company is paying him to solve problems in a particular space. Once he solves them, he knows how to solve them in the future. When working on an OSS project in the same space, he can apply the techniques he learned at his job to that project.
Xylakant 13y ago
> I don't know you, but I'm paid for the work I produce, I'd be really happy if I could be paid for learning stuff and not doing shit. Your employer does not pay the time you spend on work-related research (or even general research)? Change job. It's part of what programmers do - find solutions to problems, and since most problems we're facing are variations of problems other people already solved research and learning about possible solutions are an important part of our work, I'd even say the most critical part. I'm happy to compensate my employees for that. > which is why non-compete agreements are invalid There's no noncompete clause being discussed here. It's basically a case of "I'm building the same product as at work, just for free" and the guy is making a direct competitor to his employer. Sorry, if one of my employees did build a competing product while being employed here without explicit permission, I'd fire him. If the guy build something mostly unrelated to his work, I'd totally agree with him, but the way this case looks like, no, I'm not.
gamblor956 13y ago
In the US, most white-collar jobs have contractual clauses that grant the employer rights to IP produced by the employee, even after work hours, if such IP relates to the work the employee performs for the employer. These clauses are enforceable in every state, though some states such as California limit the breadth of "related" to the specific industry or industries in which the employer operates.
Twirrim 13y ago
> > Your employer is sponsoring a lot of your learnings in a specific area, so he's entitled to all your ideas in that area > No, he is not on either count. Yes they are... are you honestly trying to tell us you've learned jack all at your current employer? No new frameworks, coding practices, algorithms? Learnt absolutely nothing about how various patterns of software writing pan out in production? If you've learned absolutely nothing, you have to be one of the most useless developers your employer has. I find that impossible to believe. > > that's what your paid for. > I don't know you, but I'm paid for the work I produce, I'd be really happy if I could be paid for learning stuff and not doing shit. No, you're being paid for your skills and abilities. That includes your learning ability. It's not "learning stuff and not doing shit", it's "learn stuff as you're doing shit". Everyone does it. A company can't guarantee where or what it's going to be working on next year or so, the market always changes. What they do have is staff capital, including hopefully a team of capable programmers that can do whatever the changing market requires, be it picking up a new language, optimising algorithms, etc. That's what people hiring and employing staff are looking for. If you're not bringing all your abilities to the job, including your ability to learn, then you've been working under really crappy bosses who have been letting you get away with it. In this particular case he's working on a CI system both in his day job and his out-of-hours work. Are you seriously trying to tell us he learned absolutely nothing about CI during the day time, and only learned stuff out-of-hours? That he gained absolutely nothing from his colleagues? Operational aspects of the software? UI?
jrs99 13y ago
I think the legality matters less and having feelings hurt matters more. If someone pays you to build something, and you build a free version on the side, they're really subsidizing a free competitor to their product. That's going to hurt people's feelings. And they're going to want to hurt your feelings too, maybe by burying you in paperwork.

motters 13y ago

The employer is not "sponsoring your learnings", they're purchasing your time and labour (if you're a regular employee). What you do outside of the scope of the contract of employment is your own.

cs02rm0 13y ago

I disagree. Your employer is sponsoring a lot of your learnings in a specific area, so he's entitled to all your ideas in that area, that's what your paid for. Absolutely not, you're paid for your time, not your thoughts!

Xylakant 13y ago
> Absolutely not, you're paid for your time, not your thoughts! Are you? I pay my employees for the value they create for the company, not to warm the chair at the office eight hours on five days a week. If someone is more productive in four hours a day than someone else at eight hours, well, go home after four, still get paid more. Fine with me.

mindcrime 13y ago

Your employer is sponsoring a lot of your learnings in a specific area "Some" maybe, but probably not "a lot". so he's entitled to all your ideas in that area, that's what your paid for. I'd argue that, in general, this is wrong. Most companies pay based on the idea that you work approximately a 40hr work week. Certainly most of us negotiate salary based on this assumption. But if a company wants all of the ideas from my brain, 24x7, they are going to have to pay a lot more. Like, 4 or 5 times more, and that's just as a starting point. It would be extremely easy to just keep your best ideas for "your" project and not use them in your work project. As long as your employer is happy with the results you're delivering, does it matter if they're getting your "best" ideas or not?

watwut 13y ago

"Your employer is sponsoring a lot of your learnings in a specific area, so he's entitled to all your ideas in that area" No way. Employer is not entitled to all java code just because he paid me to java certification. Employer to all my products forever just because he paid my college or whatever. "that's what your paid for" I am paid for work done for employer. I'm not own by him. "It would be extremely easy to just keep your best ideas for "your" project and not use them in your work project." Well, then your workplace contribution would be lower then the contribution of your collegues. I would expect you to have lower salary or be fired if you contribute too little. The same way as if you would never had the idea in the first place. "The construction company would have a valid claim if you stole the blueprints at work." However, the construction company would NOT have a valid claim if I would make my own blueprints at home.

Xylakant 13y ago
> No way. Employer is not entitled to all java code just because he paid me to java certification. Employer to all my products forever just because he paid my college or whatever. Your understanding of "specific area" is quite broad. I thought more along the lines "his employer paid him to do research and development for CI-Systems", so he should not in his spare time build a competing CI-System. > I am paid for work done for employer. I'm not own by him. Where did I say so? You're certainly not owned by your employer, you're not a slave. But you can't go and build the same thing at home and give it away for free as you're building at work and get paid for. Even for a construction guy that would be a problem. Undercutting your employer with knowledge gained at work? Do you think any employer would be fine with that?