6 ms·

Also when nearly all mid-sized corps and above have in their employment contract that all knowledge/output etc whether on company time or not, is property of th

Also when nearly all mid-sized corps and above have in their employment contract that all knowledge/output etc whether on company time or not, is property of the company.

rubiquity 12y ago
Does that really hold up in court? I suppose it depends on the state you live in. I hope someday a developer stands up to this, wins in court and scares the crap out of employers all across the country from trying the same. We need a Rackspace/NewEgg of Employer Intellectual Property trolls.
- Argorak 12y ago
  Never sign this unless you have a lawyer, money and breath to invalidate a clause you thought "does not hold up in court".
Nursie 12y ago
Never sign these. They have no right. None at all. It's fair enough to get people to sign something that says they won't leak IP, and even that they won't do other projects that compete with company business. But a catch-all "All your code belongs to us?" No. Way.
- Xylakant 12y ago
  > They have no right. None at all. Depends on where you are. In germany this is actually enshrined in the Arbeitnehmererfindungsgesetz. The employer has the right, even without the contract clause. Good luck opting out.
  - Nursie 12y ago
    Wow. Remind me never to work in Germany! (It comes up once in a while. I probably wasn't going to anyway, but this is further reason not to)
    - Nursie 12y ago
      Just out of interest, to whoever did it - why the downvote? I think Germany's a great country, there's an awful lot done right there, but it's important enough to me that I retain ownership of my own out-of-hours projects that I would not work there. Is this wrong of me?
    - Xylakant 12y ago
      Why? There's an easy way to solve this problem: Go talk to your employer. The ones you might want to work for are reasonable: I'm not claiming IP rights for unrelated side projects of employees. Now if you get into the area where you're dealing with trade secrets and patents on stuff that directly relates to your work, even if you write the code on the side, you'll probably run into trouble in a lot of jurisdictions. There's no way to effectively draw the line and say "oh, this small idea about the flux-compensator, I had that at work, but this great, patent-worthy-and-billion-dollar idea, that builds on my previous findings at work, that one, that totally came to me in my spare time (exactly at 08:01 pm, just as I stepped into my car)." That's the problems that these regulations try to tackle. It's imperfect, but hey, at least you're entitled to a fair compensation by the same law.
      - Nursie 12y ago
        Talking to your employer solves nothing. Many times people will renege on verbal agreements to allow things, either because of inflated concerns about liability or competition, or simply out of ignorance or spite. I don't wish to exposed to those legal possibilities. It's just not acceptable to me.
        Xylakant 12y ago
        > Many times people will renege on verbal agreements to allow things, either because of inflated concerns about liability or competition, or simply out of ignorance or spite. That's what I meant with 'people you don't want to work for', especially the ones that act out of spite. I found all employers that I worked for in my career quite supportive, some would even allow me to work on the side projects during office time. > I don't wish to exposed to those legal possibilities. It's just not acceptable to me. Certainly your choice. Given that a lot of US employment contracts have clauses to the same effect I'd be curious what options remain. European law is fairly well standardized and I'd not be surprised if other european countries have laws to the same effect. Germany tends to be pretty employee friendly.
  - jsmthrowaway 12y ago
    You know, not being a German speaker, the first time I read that name I thought you were being facetious. No disrespect to the German language, but that is one hell of a name. I'm assuming an English equivalent is something like "standard conflict resolution for employees?" I can see "arbitration" in the German, if I'm not mistaken.
    - Xylakant 12y ago
      No, I'm not being facetious. The official name is "Gesetz über Arbeitnehmererfindungen", the official short "ArbnErfG". (http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbnerfg/BJNR007560957.html#BJNR007560957BJNG000200306 http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbnerfg/BJNR007560957.htm...) The english equivalent would be "Law governing inventions made by employees".
    - rz2k 12y ago
      "Arbeit" is a way to free yourself, but it isn't arbitration.
      - Xylakant 12y ago
        I hope the nazi reference ("Arbeit macht frei") was not intentional.
    - Dewie 12y ago
      You could say that German is one of the languages where you can combine words to form new words pretty freely. A lot of language features seem pretty weird from other reference points. But I don't think it's constructive to point it out like this.
- JackFr 12y ago
  What about working for a competitor? Presumably a company can ask that you not actively undermine their product while cashing their paychecks? From that I would argue that by building a similar product in his free time he was effectively working for a competitor.
  - Nursie 12y ago
    I'm not sure that my attitude to "we own all your stuff" clauses is directly relevant to the case at hand, no. I agree entirely that the employer has the right to ask you not to compete while you're still employed by them. I won't sign non-competes that extend past employment, but I don't think it's unreasonable to sign one during employment. Particularly not for products (FOSS or otherwise) that directly compete with the very thing you're working on now.
    - Xylakant 12y ago
      > Particularly not for products (FOSS or otherwise) that directly compete with the very thing you're working on now. But that's the case discussed here. The guy was tasked to build a CI-System at work and built another one in his spare time.
      - Nursie 12y ago
        Yes, I know, which is why my comment was specifically about clauses in which employers claim ownership of side projects and other out of scope productivity. Please track back up-thread to see the comment I was responding to.
JohnBooty 12y ago
Tip: I've worked at 4 or 5 small/medium companies where I crossed this out of my employment contract before signing it, and had the hiring person initial the modification. I just explain that I have a number of hobby projects that I can't hand over to the company. In my experience most companies don't even know or care that clause is in there and have no problem waiving it. Remember, employment contracts are almost always just prepared by their legal firm, and the legal firm is just copy-pasting most if not all of the contract. You can do this with literally any clause of any contract, by the way. The other party might balk (good luck if you try it on your mortgage papers!) but generally it's much easier than you think...
- ryandrake 12y ago
  Your mileage will definitely vary on this one. I've tried this a couple of times, and the result was always the same: "Sign an unmodified employer agreement or go find another job."
  - JohnBooty 12y ago
    It doesn't surprise me that mileage can vary; I'm sorry you had to deal with unreasonable companies. Were they tech-focused companies? In my cases, they were companies where software development was necessary but tangential to what they do. For example I currently work at a printing company where I help to automate digital stuff and help drive print sales with online storefronts. I'm not even sure the owner knows what programming is other than the fact that I do it for him and it makes his stuff work. So he's not interested in owning software I write outside of work hours...
mgkimsal 12y ago
Usually the clause is more nuanced, giving them an option to own it, or something to that effect. I asked an HR person years ago if they actually wanted to be on the hook for any intellectual property I might create off the clock - I might be in to illegal porn stuff, or security virus work, or whatever. Did they really want to claim ownership of that, without even knowing what it was? "Well, no, we don't want that" was the response.
- Xylakant 12y ago
  You can't be on the hook for intellectual property. Having the right to the IP you gained off hours does not mean that they're on the hook for your actions in that time, even if your actions were a requisite to gain that IP. The clauses are usually more nuanced because the blanket "we own all you ever create" is - rightfully - considered to broad and unenforceable.
  - mgkimsal 12y ago
    yeah - unenforceable - in that one case I actually got them to modify the language to be a bit more clear as to what they were after (essentially non-competition).
balls187 12y ago
Depending on location, those may be illegal. In WA state, only work you do on company time, or with/on company resources can be claimed by the company.

Also when nearly all mid-sized corps and above have in their employment contract that all knowledge/output etc whether on company time or not, is property of the company.

rubiquity 12y ago

Does that really hold up in court? I suppose it depends on the state you live in. I hope someday a developer stands up to this, wins in court and scares the crap out of employers all across the country from trying the same. We need a Rackspace/NewEgg of Employer Intellectual Property trolls.

Argorak 12y ago
Never sign this unless you have a lawyer, money and breath to invalidate a clause you thought "does not hold up in court".

Nursie 12y ago

Never sign these. They have no right. None at all. It's fair enough to get people to sign something that says they won't leak IP, and even that they won't do other projects that compete with company business. But a catch-all "All your code belongs to us?" No. Way.

Xylakant 12y ago
> They have no right. None at all. Depends on where you are. In germany this is actually enshrined in the Arbeitnehmererfindungsgesetz. The employer has the right, even without the contract clause. Good luck opting out.
- Nursie 12y ago
  Wow. Remind me never to work in Germany! (It comes up once in a while. I probably wasn't going to anyway, but this is further reason not to)
  - Nursie 12y ago
    Just out of interest, to whoever did it - why the downvote? I think Germany's a great country, there's an awful lot done right there, but it's important enough to me that I retain ownership of my own out-of-hours projects that I would not work there. Is this wrong of me?
  - Xylakant 12y ago
    Why? There's an easy way to solve this problem: Go talk to your employer. The ones you might want to work for are reasonable: I'm not claiming IP rights for unrelated side projects of employees. Now if you get into the area where you're dealing with trade secrets and patents on stuff that directly relates to your work, even if you write the code on the side, you'll probably run into trouble in a lot of jurisdictions. There's no way to effectively draw the line and say "oh, this small idea about the flux-compensator, I had that at work, but this great, patent-worthy-and-billion-dollar idea, that builds on my previous findings at work, that one, that totally came to me in my spare time (exactly at 08:01 pm, just as I stepped into my car)." That's the problems that these regulations try to tackle. It's imperfect, but hey, at least you're entitled to a fair compensation by the same law.
    - Nursie 12y ago
      Talking to your employer solves nothing. Many times people will renege on verbal agreements to allow things, either because of inflated concerns about liability or competition, or simply out of ignorance or spite. I don't wish to exposed to those legal possibilities. It's just not acceptable to me.
      - Xylakant 12y ago
        > Many times people will renege on verbal agreements to allow things, either because of inflated concerns about liability or competition, or simply out of ignorance or spite. That's what I meant with 'people you don't want to work for', especially the ones that act out of spite. I found all employers that I worked for in my career quite supportive, some would even allow me to work on the side projects during office time. > I don't wish to exposed to those legal possibilities. It's just not acceptable to me. Certainly your choice. Given that a lot of US employment contracts have clauses to the same effect I'd be curious what options remain. European law is fairly well standardized and I'd not be surprised if other european countries have laws to the same effect. Germany tends to be pretty employee friendly.
- jsmthrowaway 12y ago
  You know, not being a German speaker, the first time I read that name I thought you were being facetious. No disrespect to the German language, but that is one hell of a name. I'm assuming an English equivalent is something like "standard conflict resolution for employees?" I can see "arbitration" in the German, if I'm not mistaken.
  - Xylakant 12y ago
    No, I'm not being facetious. The official name is "Gesetz über Arbeitnehmererfindungen", the official short "ArbnErfG". (http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbnerfg/BJNR007560957.html#BJNR007560957BJNG000200306 http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbnerfg/BJNR007560957.htm...) The english equivalent would be "Law governing inventions made by employees".
  - rz2k 12y ago
    "Arbeit" is a way to free yourself, but it isn't arbitration.
    - Xylakant 12y ago
      I hope the nazi reference ("Arbeit macht frei") was not intentional.
  - Dewie 12y ago
    You could say that German is one of the languages where you can combine words to form new words pretty freely. A lot of language features seem pretty weird from other reference points. But I don't think it's constructive to point it out like this.
JackFr 12y ago
What about working for a competitor? Presumably a company can ask that you not actively undermine their product while cashing their paychecks? From that I would argue that by building a similar product in his free time he was effectively working for a competitor.
- Nursie 12y ago
  I'm not sure that my attitude to "we own all your stuff" clauses is directly relevant to the case at hand, no. I agree entirely that the employer has the right to ask you not to compete while you're still employed by them. I won't sign non-competes that extend past employment, but I don't think it's unreasonable to sign one during employment. Particularly not for products (FOSS or otherwise) that directly compete with the very thing you're working on now.
  - Xylakant 12y ago
    > Particularly not for products (FOSS or otherwise) that directly compete with the very thing you're working on now. But that's the case discussed here. The guy was tasked to build a CI-System at work and built another one in his spare time.
    - Nursie 12y ago
      Yes, I know, which is why my comment was specifically about clauses in which employers claim ownership of side projects and other out of scope productivity. Please track back up-thread to see the comment I was responding to.

JohnBooty 12y ago

Tip: I've worked at 4 or 5 small/medium companies where I crossed this out of my employment contract before signing it, and had the hiring person initial the modification. I just explain that I have a number of hobby projects that I can't hand over to the company. In my experience most companies don't even know or care that clause is in there and have no problem waiving it. Remember, employment contracts are almost always just prepared by their legal firm, and the legal firm is just copy-pasting most if not all of the contract. You can do this with literally any clause of any contract, by the way. The other party might balk (good luck if you try it on your mortgage papers!) but generally it's much easier than you think...

ryandrake 12y ago
Your mileage will definitely vary on this one. I've tried this a couple of times, and the result was always the same: "Sign an unmodified employer agreement or go find another job."
- JohnBooty 12y ago
  It doesn't surprise me that mileage can vary; I'm sorry you had to deal with unreasonable companies. Were they tech-focused companies? In my cases, they were companies where software development was necessary but tangential to what they do. For example I currently work at a printing company where I help to automate digital stuff and help drive print sales with online storefronts. I'm not even sure the owner knows what programming is other than the fact that I do it for him and it makes his stuff work. So he's not interested in owning software I write outside of work hours...

mgkimsal 12y ago

Usually the clause is more nuanced, giving them an option to own it, or something to that effect. I asked an HR person years ago if they actually wanted to be on the hook for any intellectual property I might create off the clock - I might be in to illegal porn stuff, or security virus work, or whatever. Did they really want to claim ownership of that, without even knowing what it was? "Well, no, we don't want that" was the response.

Xylakant 12y ago
You can't be on the hook for intellectual property. Having the right to the IP you gained off hours does not mean that they're on the hook for your actions in that time, even if your actions were a requisite to gain that IP. The clauses are usually more nuanced because the blanket "we own all you ever create" is - rightfully - considered to broad and unenforceable.
- mgkimsal 12y ago
  yeah - unenforceable - in that one case I actually got them to modify the language to be a bit more clear as to what they were after (essentially non-competition).

balls187 12y ago

Depending on location, those may be illegal. In WA state, only work you do on company time, or with/on company resources can be claimed by the company.