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It will be interesting if any major game engines pop up using Rust as the core language, or even Go. C++ has been the king of highly optimised game engines for

It will be interesting if any major game engines pop up using Rust as the core language, or even Go. C++ has been the king of highly optimised game engines for so long, I can't help but feel it has become so entrenched in the industry that it will take something monumental to disrupt it.

kibwen 13y ago
There already exists a subcommunity devoted to exploring Rust's applicability to game development and computer graphics. The most active person in this department is probably Brendan Zabarauskas: http://voyager3.tumblr.com/post/82419271783/i-found-this-ancient-work-in-my-old-deviant-art http://voyager3.tumblr.com/post/82419271783/i-found-this-anc... I also know of a few game development studios with R&D departments who have had an eye on Rust in the past, though I bet it will be a long time before a major studio is willing to make the risk that writing an engine in Rust would entail.
Narishma 13y ago
I don't think it will happen with Rust until it becomes more stable with no breaking changes between releases. As for Go, it's not very well suited to this domain. Or at least no better suited than Java or C#.
- bjz_ 13y ago
  > I don't think it will happen with Rust until it becomes more stable Indeed. Most of the trail blazing work is being done by professional game devs in their spare time, hobbyists, indies and students who are willing to endure the pains of early adoption for the incredible gains that Rust gives them. It will only be post 1.0 however that the bigger players will be able to even consider using Rust. It's too risky to bet an entire company on – and that's coming from somebody who is willing to bet their indie project on it. ;)
mattgreenrocks 13y ago
What's the appeal of Rust for gamedev?
- gnuvince 13y ago
  A safer language with higher-level, low-cost abstractions.
  - zerooneinfinity 13y ago
    Honestly, I've made over 15 games in my career and safety with C++ really just isn't an issue with decent developers. The line between what's a programmer for games and what's a designer is narrowing, most designers are competent programmers. Furthermore, there's some great tools out there to help prevent things like memory leaks. Combine that with good company practice, like code reviews, and it becomes a non-issue.
    - pcwalton 13y ago
      > Furthermore, there's some great tools out there to help prevent things like memory leaks. Combine that with good company practice, like code reviews, and it becomes a non-issue. The security track record of applications written in C++ disagrees with you.
      - angersock 13y ago
        They're talking about games in C++, not random C++ apps. Oranges to apples.
      - zanny 13y ago
        We are talking about new engines written in these languages, though, not multi-decade old codebases still using inline assembler, goto, and pointer arithmetic. Modern C++ is really safe if you use the subset that involves automatic storage duration, well bounded arrays, etc and use all the warning flags of your compiler, run static analysis, have a robust test framework, etc.
        pcwalton 13y ago
        No, modern C++ is not even close to memory safe. This is my favorite meme to destroy over and over on HN. :) Consider iterator invalidation, null pointer dereference (which is undefined behavior, not a segfault -- and you can't get away from pointers because of "this" and move semantics), dangling references, destruction of the unique owner of the "this" pointer, use after move, etc. etc.
bjz_ 13y ago
I don't foresee big, established C++ code bases like the Unreal Engine being re-written from scratch, but once Rust reaches 1.0 it will definitely be a very compelling choice for new projects. It will start with the side-projects and indie projects, and gradually work its way up to larger and larger projects as the language proves itself. It's not a something that will happen overnight.
forrestthewoods 13y ago
Can Rust code be compiled and debugged on PC, OS X, Linux, iOS, Android, PS4, and XB1? If the answer to any of those platforms is no then the answer to your question is no.
- steveklabnik 13y ago
  iOS, PS4, and XB1 are missing. I know it's not your point, just providing some answers in case someone is wondering.
  - forrestthewoods 13y ago
    I was making a point and asking a real question because I didn't know. I checked wikipedia and couldn't get a clear answer. So thanks! Sticking with C/C++ also means you'll be able to more easily port your game to any platform of the future. It's just a safe bet that any future platform (either hardware or software) will support C/C++. Especially for games. Anything else is a dice roll. Sometimes a roll worth taking, but still a roll.
    - bjz_ 13y ago
      I think it will most likely be smaller devs and indies who use Rust for game dev initially. Once demand grows, hopefully there will be better cross platform support in the future. Thankfully Rust emits LLVM IR, so that will make expanding to more platforms like iOS, PS4 and Enscripten much easier. XB1 would still be an issue though... not much you can do about that though. For me, Mac/Win/Linux/Android/iOS support is more than enough, and I think it will be enough to bootstrap the language into some level of industry acceptance. It depends on the project really, and how much the developer values console support over the benefits that a modern systems language like Rust provides.
lobster_johnson 13y ago
I have high hopes for Nimrod [1] in that regard. Unlike Rust and Go, Nimrod is able to be almost as fast as C/C++ without sacrificing syntax; Nimrod's syntax often looks entirely like Python. For example, here's the example from the Nimrod home page: # compute average line length var count = 0 var sum = 0 for line in stdin.lines: count += 1 sum += line.len echo "Average line length: ", if count > 0: sum / count else: 0 Type inference ensures that this uses efficient types internally, and is compiled to something very close to the efficiency of C. Here [2] is the generated C code, minus line tracing and stack trace frame generation. (Nimrod does things like bounds checking and overflow checking; without them, the program obviously becomes faster; the AddInt() function, for example, is replaced with a simple "+=".) [1] http://nimrod-lang.org http://nimrod-lang.org [2] https://gist.github.com/atombender/f50e47c573f865d000ec https://gist.github.com/atombender/f50e47c573f865d000ec
- bjz_ 13y ago
  Nimrod is a great language, but it has different goals to Rust. You get better expressiveness, and cleaner code, but you don't get the huge benefits of Rust's static type system. It depends on which you value more - I think there is a place for them both though.
  - lobster_johnson 13y ago
    Nimrod's static type system looks comparable to Rust's; are you referring to Rust's safety guarantees? If so, I believe Nimrod's support for immutability gets you pretty far, but I have not looked very deeply at it. For example, implements an explicit "IO taint" mechanism reminiscent of Haskell.

kibwen 13y ago

There already exists a subcommunity devoted to exploring Rust's applicability to game development and computer graphics. The most active person in this department is probably Brendan Zabarauskas: http://voyager3.tumblr.com/post/82419271783/i-found-this-ancient-work-in-my-old-deviant-art http://voyager3.tumblr.com/post/82419271783/i-found-this-anc... I also know of a few game development studios with R&D departments who have had an eye on Rust in the past, though I bet it will be a long time before a major studio is willing to make the risk that writing an engine in Rust would entail.

Narishma 13y ago

I don't think it will happen with Rust until it becomes more stable with no breaking changes between releases. As for Go, it's not very well suited to this domain. Or at least no better suited than Java or C#.

bjz_ 13y ago
> I don't think it will happen with Rust until it becomes more stable Indeed. Most of the trail blazing work is being done by professional game devs in their spare time, hobbyists, indies and students who are willing to endure the pains of early adoption for the incredible gains that Rust gives them. It will only be post 1.0 however that the bigger players will be able to even consider using Rust. It's too risky to bet an entire company on – and that's coming from somebody who is willing to bet their indie project on it. ;)

mattgreenrocks 13y ago

What's the appeal of Rust for gamedev?

gnuvince 13y ago
A safer language with higher-level, low-cost abstractions.
- zerooneinfinity 13y ago
  Honestly, I've made over 15 games in my career and safety with C++ really just isn't an issue with decent developers. The line between what's a programmer for games and what's a designer is narrowing, most designers are competent programmers. Furthermore, there's some great tools out there to help prevent things like memory leaks. Combine that with good company practice, like code reviews, and it becomes a non-issue.
  - pcwalton 13y ago
    > Furthermore, there's some great tools out there to help prevent things like memory leaks. Combine that with good company practice, like code reviews, and it becomes a non-issue. The security track record of applications written in C++ disagrees with you.
    - angersock 13y ago
      They're talking about games in C++, not random C++ apps. Oranges to apples.
    - zanny 13y ago
      We are talking about new engines written in these languages, though, not multi-decade old codebases still using inline assembler, goto, and pointer arithmetic. Modern C++ is really safe if you use the subset that involves automatic storage duration, well bounded arrays, etc and use all the warning flags of your compiler, run static analysis, have a robust test framework, etc.
      - pcwalton 13y ago
        No, modern C++ is not even close to memory safe. This is my favorite meme to destroy over and over on HN. :) Consider iterator invalidation, null pointer dereference (which is undefined behavior, not a segfault -- and you can't get away from pointers because of "this" and move semantics), dangling references, destruction of the unique owner of the "this" pointer, use after move, etc. etc.

bjz_ 13y ago

I don't foresee big, established C++ code bases like the Unreal Engine being re-written from scratch, but once Rust reaches 1.0 it will definitely be a very compelling choice for new projects. It will start with the side-projects and indie projects, and gradually work its way up to larger and larger projects as the language proves itself. It's not a something that will happen overnight.

forrestthewoods 13y ago

Can Rust code be compiled and debugged on PC, OS X, Linux, iOS, Android, PS4, and XB1? If the answer to any of those platforms is no then the answer to your question is no.

steveklabnik 13y ago
iOS, PS4, and XB1 are missing. I know it's not your point, just providing some answers in case someone is wondering.
- forrestthewoods 13y ago
  I was making a point and asking a real question because I didn't know. I checked wikipedia and couldn't get a clear answer. So thanks! Sticking with C/C++ also means you'll be able to more easily port your game to any platform of the future. It's just a safe bet that any future platform (either hardware or software) will support C/C++. Especially for games. Anything else is a dice roll. Sometimes a roll worth taking, but still a roll.
  - bjz_ 13y ago
    I think it will most likely be smaller devs and indies who use Rust for game dev initially. Once demand grows, hopefully there will be better cross platform support in the future. Thankfully Rust emits LLVM IR, so that will make expanding to more platforms like iOS, PS4 and Enscripten much easier. XB1 would still be an issue though... not much you can do about that though. For me, Mac/Win/Linux/Android/iOS support is more than enough, and I think it will be enough to bootstrap the language into some level of industry acceptance. It depends on the project really, and how much the developer values console support over the benefits that a modern systems language like Rust provides.

lobster_johnson 13y ago

I have high hopes for Nimrod [1] in that regard. Unlike Rust and Go, Nimrod is able to be almost as fast as C/C++ without sacrificing syntax; Nimrod's syntax often looks entirely like Python. For example, here's the example from the Nimrod home page: # compute average line length var count = 0 var sum = 0 for line in stdin.lines: count += 1 sum += line.len echo "Average line length: ", if count > 0: sum / count else: 0 Type inference ensures that this uses efficient types internally, and is compiled to something very close to the efficiency of C. Here [2] is the generated C code, minus line tracing and stack trace frame generation. (Nimrod does things like bounds checking and overflow checking; without them, the program obviously becomes faster; the AddInt() function, for example, is replaced with a simple "+=".) [1] http://nimrod-lang.org http://nimrod-lang.org [2] https://gist.github.com/atombender/f50e47c573f865d000ec https://gist.github.com/atombender/f50e47c573f865d000ec

bjz_ 13y ago
Nimrod is a great language, but it has different goals to Rust. You get better expressiveness, and cleaner code, but you don't get the huge benefits of Rust's static type system. It depends on which you value more - I think there is a place for them both though.
- lobster_johnson 13y ago
  Nimrod's static type system looks comparable to Rust's; are you referring to Rust's safety guarantees? If so, I believe Nimrod's support for immutability gets you pretty far, but I have not looked very deeply at it. For example, implements an explicit "IO taint" mechanism reminiscent of Haskell.