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That is why it is happening. NATO was set-up to counter the Soviets (dominated by Russia) and it is a slap in the face for Russia to allow NATO right on their b

That is why it is happening. NATO was set-up to counter the Soviets (dominated by Russia) and it is a slap in the face for Russia to allow NATO right on their border when they are trying to become a real world power again. NATO might have gotten away with limited defence/economic pacts with former Soviet satellites, but full NATO and EU membership was bound to provoke a reaction from Russia. Apparently the US State Department didn't learn from its arrogance in Iraq, because such blatant provocation shouldn't have been allowed.

ceejayoz 12y ago
> Apparently the US State Department didn't learn from its arrogance in Iraq, because such blatant provocation shouldn't have been allowed. Provocation: Letting Ukraine voluntarily choose closer ties with the West Not Provocation: Invading and annexing the Crimea Gotcha. Also, since when is the US State Department in charge of the EU?
- Perdition 12y ago
  >Provocation: Letting Ukraine voluntarily choose closer ties with the West Ukraine should have been quietly told that joining NATO or the EU was not possible. >Not Provocation: Invading and annexing the Crimea Strawman: This. What Russia did is absolutely wrong IMO, but it is expected (just like the US doesn't like anyone else messing with South America or the Caribbean). >Also, since when is the US State Department in charge of the EU? The US has been the primary power in Western Europe since the 8th of May 1945. The US can directly control who enters NATO, and wields significant influence over the primary EU members. The possibility of Ukraine joining NATO or the EU would have gone through State and should have been firmly rejected. EDIT: Downvotes and no replies, I can't tell whether I am on Hacker News or reddit.
  - PeterisP 12y ago
    The concept of "should have been quietly told that joining .. was not possible" is immoral. Nations have a right of self-determination. Russia and USA can argue for their interests, but if USA and Russia agree "oh, country X will be in your sphere of influence" without giving country X a voice and a veto-vote there - that is evil and insulting to people living in those nations, just as Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement before WW2. Such divisions should be unacceptable to the global community.
- democracy 12y ago
  Not directly in charge, but close... http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/bolivia-angered-by-forced-landing-of-morales-plane-a-909219.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/bolivia-angered-by...
  - ceejayoz 12y ago
    The UK's GCHQ is just as interested in nabbing Snowden as the NSA.
- valtih1978 12y ago
  > Provocation: Letting Ukraine voluntarily choose closer ties with the West , Learn how the "voluntary" choice is imposed on the Ukranie. Member the Maidan, totally supported by west to capture power in Kiev. They did it violently, using neonazi squads on the streets. Now, the russian TV, history and language is banned in Ukraine, which means that everything is ready for the "voluntary" choice. Member Nuland in Youtube dictating who will be the next prime minister in Ukraine. This is how "voluntary choices" are made. > Not Provocation: Invading and annexing the Crimea you. Say that: "Russuans (the population of Crimea) are biogarbage and have no right to make their choice". http://www.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fuainfo.org%2Fyandex%2F307877-ukraina-stanet-po-nastoyaschemu-svobodnoy-tolko-posle-uborki-ot-rashistskogo-biomusora-bloger.html http://www.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=auto&tl=en&...
- valtih1978 12y ago
  Just to inform your ingonrance. The Eastern and South Ukraine is a Russia. It was attached to the Ukraine be the bloody communist criminals. Look at the map http://13571113.blogspot.com/2014/03/republic-of-novorossiya.html http://13571113.blogspot.com/2014/03/republic-of-novorossiya... New government of Ukraine is neonazi, installed by the US during this winter. This is done second time. First time it happened in 2004, why american citizen Uschenko has imposed antisoviet propaganda in the school program, the WWII nazi criminal, Stepan Bandera, was made a national hero. It was indoctrinated a neonazi idea that russians are inborn slaves and biogarbage, russian language was banned. Antisoviet/antirussian brainwashing was absolutely successful but economic programme has failed. Therefore Uschenko has lost the office. But, in 2013, US has re-installed its puppet government in the Ukraine again, by force. How do you react? The new government was much more neonazi (look for "svoboda" party and "far right groups patrolling Kiev"). The first law was to ban the russian language again. They have declared that they will remove the russian fleet (which is located in crimea forever, since Crimea is another Russian land, attached to Ukraine by mistake by Soviet Authority, when ). Now, how do you prove that Russian people (the total population of the Crimea, Doneck, Odessa) should welcome the US-installed russophobic mankurts in Kiev, who chant "slotter the russians" (https://www.google.ee/search?q=москалей+на+ножи https://www.google.ee/search?q=москалей+на+ножи) in their fascist marches? You do not bother to prove that. Your propaganda has already put all shit in your head. 1. Russian people in the Ukraine (almost the half of the pouplation) have all the right to run away from your neonazi puppets. 2. They have full right to live with other russians. 3. Russia has all the right to meet the aspirations of frightented people in Ukraine and defend its national interests, which are the Black Sea fleet, russian population united with the rest of the Russia and no NATO in the Ukraine. You dehumiliate the russian hostages in Ukraine because you want the whole Ukraine to go under Western domination. You want it to separate from the Russia because (as Bzhesinzki puts that) Russia will loose its ability to stand against US Empire only if it looses the Ukraine. You is an imperialist, brainwahsed by the Western propaganda. Crimea has came back home. The "Independent Ukraine" is American, anti-Russia project. The population is russian and feels bad there. It must be ukrainized, turned into ukranians (anti-russians). All russian regions must return back to Russian home, immediately. Start respecting territorial integrity of Sovient Union, not Ukraine.
- valtih1978 12y ago
  Just to inform your ingonrance. The Eastern and South Ukraine is a Russia. It was attached to the Ukraine be the bloody communist criminals. Look at the map http://13571113.blogspot.com/2014/03/republic-of-novorossiya.html http://13571113.blogspot.com/2014/03/republic-of-novorossiya... New government of Ukraine is neonazi, installed by the US during this winter. This is done second time. First time it happened in 2004, why american citizen Uschenko has imposed antisoviet propaganda in the school program, the WWII nazi criminal, Stepan Bandera, was made a national hero. It was indoctrinated a neonazi idea that russians are inborn slaves and biogarbage, russian language was banned. Antisoviet/antirussian brainwashing was absolutely successful but economic programme has failed. Therefore Uschenko has lost the office. But, in 2013, US has re-installed its puppet government in the Ukraine again, by force. How do you react? The new government was much more neonazi (look for "svoboda" party and "far right groups patrolling Kiev"). The first law was to ban the russian language again. They have declared that they will remove the russian fleet (which is located in crimea forever, since Crimea is another Russian land, attached to Ukraine by mistake by Soviet Authority, when ). Now, how do you prove that Russian people (the total population of the Crimea, Doneck, Odessa) should welcome the US-installed russophobic mankurts in Kiev, who chant "slotter the russians" (https://www.google.ee/search?q=москалей+на+ножи https://www.google.ee/search?q=москалей+на+ножи) in their fascist marches? You do not bother to prove that. Your propaganda has already put all shit in your head. 1. Russian people in the Ukraine (almost the half of the pouplation) have all the right to run away from your neonazi puppets. 2. They have full right to live with other russians. 3. Russia has all the right to meet the aspirations of frightented people in Ukraine and defend its national interests, which are the Black Sea fleet, russian population united with the rest of the Russia and no NATO in the Ukraine. You dehumiliate the russian hostages in Ukraine because you want the whole Ukraine to go under Western domination. You want it to separate from the Russia because (as Bzhesinzki puts that) Russia will loose its ability to stand against US Empire only if it looses the Ukraine. You is an imperialist, brainwahsed by the Western propaganda. Crimea has came back home. The "Independent Ukraine" is American, anti-Russia project. The population is russian and feels bad there. It must be ukrainized, turned into ukranians (anti-russians). All russian regions must return back to Russian home, immediately. Start respecting territorial integrity of Sovient Union, not Ukraine.
- valtih1978 12y ago
  Just to inform your ingonrance. The Eastern and South Ukraine is a Russia. It was attached to the Ukraine be the bloody communist criminals. Look at the map http://13571113.blogspot.com/2014/03/republic-of-novorossiya.html http://13571113.blogspot.com/2014/03/republic-of-novorossiya... New government of Ukraine is neonazi, installed by the US during this winter. This is done second time. First time it happened in 2004, why american citizen Uschenko has imposed antisoviet propaganda in the school program, the WWII nazi criminal, Stepan Bandera, was made a national hero. It was indoctrinated a neonazi idea that russians are inborn slaves and biogarbage, russian language was banned. Antisoviet/antirussian brainwashing was absolutely successful but economic programme has failed. Therefore Uschenko has lost the office. But, in 2013, US has re-installed its puppet government in the Ukraine again, by force. How do you react? The new government was much more neonazi (look for "svoboda" party and "far right groups patrolling Kiev"). The first law was to ban the russian language again. They have declared that they will remove the russian fleet (which is located in crimea forever, since Crimea is another Russian land, attached to Ukraine by mistake by Soviet Authority, when ). Now, how do you prove that Russian people (the total population of the Crimea, Doneck, Odessa) should welcome the US-installed russophobic mankurts in Kiev, who chant "slotter the russians" (https://www.google.ee/search?q=москалей+на+ножи https://www.google.ee/search?q=москалей+на+ножи) in their fascist marches? You do not bother to prove that. Your propaganda has already put all shit in your head. 1. Russian people in the Ukraine (almost the half of the pouplation) have all the right to run away from your neonazi puppets. 2. They have full right to live with other russians. 3. Russia has all the right to meet the aspirations of frightented people in Ukraine and defend its national interests, which are the Black Sea fleet, russian population united with the rest of the Russia and no NATO in the Ukraine. You dehumiliate the russian hostages in Ukraine because you want the whole Ukraine to go under Western domination. You want it to separate from the Russia because (as Bzhesinzki puts that) Russia will loose its ability to stand against US Empire only if it looses the Ukraine. You is an imperialist, brainwahsed by the Western propaganda. Crimea has came back home. The "Independent Ukraine" is American, anti-Russia project. The population is russian and feels bad there. It must be ukrainized, turned into ukranians (anti-russians). All russian regions must return back to Russian home, immediately. Start respecting territorial integrity of Sovient Union, not Ukraine. Russia should not let the NATO to expand and install anti-Russian missles in Crimea and Ukraine. Russia did not attach its parts to Ukraine for that. Nato wants the russians to be separated, to live outside the Russia.
- AnimalMuppet 12y ago
  Well said. But... Putin probably remembers his history. In World War II, Germany nearly overran Russia, and it started from the middle of Poland. If it had been able to start from the eastern border of Ukraine, Russia might well have not survived. So Putin may feel, historically, that Russia's survival is at stake if Ukraine joins NATO. (I am not saying that Putin's desire to control Ukraine is moral or ethical. I am merely saying that it is understandable.)
ajuc 12y ago
Why should people in states bordering Russia care what Russia thinks of their independence and alliances?
- Perdition 12y ago
  Because that is political reality. Do you see any armies marching to protect Ukraine's territorial integrity? Russia isn't a small state that can be easily threatened, and nobody in the West has the stomach for a real war. I bet Russia could take all of Ukraine with no response beyond a boycott and some air-strikes. P.S. The US has done far worse things than what Russia is currently doing in order to keep South America and the Caribbean within their sphere of influence. Small neighbours of great powers seldom get to exercise real independence.
  - nikatwork 12y ago
    How does the US doing bad things justify Russia doing bad things to a territory independent of both? That makes no sense at all. And the fact that Russia can get away with it does not ethically absolve their actions. If we followed your ideas, the Baltic states would never have broken away from Russia. That actually worked out quite well for them.
    - Stolpe 12y ago
      It doesn't justify it, however it explains it.
- AnimalMuppet 12y ago
  Morally/ethically: They shouldn't. Practically: Because that is the way the world actually works. If you've got a big power like Russia, with a leader that is willing to use that power, then your choices have consequences. You'd better think about those consequences when you're making your choices. [Edit: If you're a neighbor to a big power like Russia, then your choices have consequences. The point was not that Russia's choices have consequences, but that Ukraine's do.)

ceejayoz 12y ago

> Apparently the US State Department didn't learn from its arrogance in Iraq, because such blatant provocation shouldn't have been allowed. Provocation: Letting Ukraine voluntarily choose closer ties with the West Not Provocation: Invading and annexing the Crimea Gotcha. Also, since when is the US State Department in charge of the EU?

Perdition 12y ago
>Provocation: Letting Ukraine voluntarily choose closer ties with the West Ukraine should have been quietly told that joining NATO or the EU was not possible. >Not Provocation: Invading and annexing the Crimea Strawman: This. What Russia did is absolutely wrong IMO, but it is expected (just like the US doesn't like anyone else messing with South America or the Caribbean). >Also, since when is the US State Department in charge of the EU? The US has been the primary power in Western Europe since the 8th of May 1945. The US can directly control who enters NATO, and wields significant influence over the primary EU members. The possibility of Ukraine joining NATO or the EU would have gone through State and should have been firmly rejected. EDIT: Downvotes and no replies, I can't tell whether I am on Hacker News or reddit.
- PeterisP 12y ago
  The concept of "should have been quietly told that joining .. was not possible" is immoral. Nations have a right of self-determination. Russia and USA can argue for their interests, but if USA and Russia agree "oh, country X will be in your sphere of influence" without giving country X a voice and a veto-vote there - that is evil and insulting to people living in those nations, just as Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement before WW2. Such divisions should be unacceptable to the global community.
democracy 12y ago
Not directly in charge, but close... http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/bolivia-angered-by-forced-landing-of-morales-plane-a-909219.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/bolivia-angered-by...
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  The UK's GCHQ is just as interested in nabbing Snowden as the NSA.
valtih1978 12y ago
> Provocation: Letting Ukraine voluntarily choose closer ties with the West , Learn how the "voluntary" choice is imposed on the Ukranie. Member the Maidan, totally supported by west to capture power in Kiev. They did it violently, using neonazi squads on the streets. Now, the russian TV, history and language is banned in Ukraine, which means that everything is ready for the "voluntary" choice. Member Nuland in Youtube dictating who will be the next prime minister in Ukraine. This is how "voluntary choices" are made. > Not Provocation: Invading and annexing the Crimea you. Say that: "Russuans (the population of Crimea) are biogarbage and have no right to make their choice". http://www.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fuainfo.org%2Fyandex%2F307877-ukraina-stanet-po-nastoyaschemu-svobodnoy-tolko-posle-uborki-ot-rashistskogo-biomusora-bloger.html http://www.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=auto&tl=en&...
valtih1978 12y ago
Just to inform your ingonrance. The Eastern and South Ukraine is a Russia. It was attached to the Ukraine be the bloody communist criminals. Look at the map http://13571113.blogspot.com/2014/03/republic-of-novorossiya.html http://13571113.blogspot.com/2014/03/republic-of-novorossiya... New government of Ukraine is neonazi, installed by the US during this winter. This is done second time. First time it happened in 2004, why american citizen Uschenko has imposed antisoviet propaganda in the school program, the WWII nazi criminal, Stepan Bandera, was made a national hero. It was indoctrinated a neonazi idea that russians are inborn slaves and biogarbage, russian language was banned. Antisoviet/antirussian brainwashing was absolutely successful but economic programme has failed. Therefore Uschenko has lost the office. But, in 2013, US has re-installed its puppet government in the Ukraine again, by force. How do you react? The new government was much more neonazi (look for "svoboda" party and "far right groups patrolling Kiev"). The first law was to ban the russian language again. They have declared that they will remove the russian fleet (which is located in crimea forever, since Crimea is another Russian land, attached to Ukraine by mistake by Soviet Authority, when ). Now, how do you prove that Russian people (the total population of the Crimea, Doneck, Odessa) should welcome the US-installed russophobic mankurts in Kiev, who chant "slotter the russians" (https://www.google.ee/search?q=москалей+на+ножи https://www.google.ee/search?q=москалей+на+ножи) in their fascist marches? You do not bother to prove that. Your propaganda has already put all shit in your head. 1. Russian people in the Ukraine (almost the half of the pouplation) have all the right to run away from your neonazi puppets. 2. They have full right to live with other russians. 3. Russia has all the right to meet the aspirations of frightented people in Ukraine and defend its national interests, which are the Black Sea fleet, russian population united with the rest of the Russia and no NATO in the Ukraine. You dehumiliate the russian hostages in Ukraine because you want the whole Ukraine to go under Western domination. You want it to separate from the Russia because (as Bzhesinzki puts that) Russia will loose its ability to stand against US Empire only if it looses the Ukraine. You is an imperialist, brainwahsed by the Western propaganda. Crimea has came back home. The "Independent Ukraine" is American, anti-Russia project. The population is russian and feels bad there. It must be ukrainized, turned into ukranians (anti-russians). All russian regions must return back to Russian home, immediately. Start respecting territorial integrity of Sovient Union, not Ukraine.
valtih1978 12y ago
Just to inform your ingonrance. The Eastern and South Ukraine is a Russia. It was attached to the Ukraine be the bloody communist criminals. Look at the map http://13571113.blogspot.com/2014/03/republic-of-novorossiya.html http://13571113.blogspot.com/2014/03/republic-of-novorossiya... New government of Ukraine is neonazi, installed by the US during this winter. This is done second time. First time it happened in 2004, why american citizen Uschenko has imposed antisoviet propaganda in the school program, the WWII nazi criminal, Stepan Bandera, was made a national hero. It was indoctrinated a neonazi idea that russians are inborn slaves and biogarbage, russian language was banned. Antisoviet/antirussian brainwashing was absolutely successful but economic programme has failed. Therefore Uschenko has lost the office. But, in 2013, US has re-installed its puppet government in the Ukraine again, by force. How do you react? The new government was much more neonazi (look for "svoboda" party and "far right groups patrolling Kiev"). The first law was to ban the russian language again. They have declared that they will remove the russian fleet (which is located in crimea forever, since Crimea is another Russian land, attached to Ukraine by mistake by Soviet Authority, when ). Now, how do you prove that Russian people (the total population of the Crimea, Doneck, Odessa) should welcome the US-installed russophobic mankurts in Kiev, who chant "slotter the russians" (https://www.google.ee/search?q=москалей+на+ножи https://www.google.ee/search?q=москалей+на+ножи) in their fascist marches? You do not bother to prove that. Your propaganda has already put all shit in your head. 1. Russian people in the Ukraine (almost the half of the pouplation) have all the right to run away from your neonazi puppets. 2. They have full right to live with other russians. 3. Russia has all the right to meet the aspirations of frightented people in Ukraine and defend its national interests, which are the Black Sea fleet, russian population united with the rest of the Russia and no NATO in the Ukraine. You dehumiliate the russian hostages in Ukraine because you want the whole Ukraine to go under Western domination. You want it to separate from the Russia because (as Bzhesinzki puts that) Russia will loose its ability to stand against US Empire only if it looses the Ukraine. You is an imperialist, brainwahsed by the Western propaganda. Crimea has came back home. The "Independent Ukraine" is American, anti-Russia project. The population is russian and feels bad there. It must be ukrainized, turned into ukranians (anti-russians). All russian regions must return back to Russian home, immediately. Start respecting territorial integrity of Sovient Union, not Ukraine.
valtih1978 12y ago
Just to inform your ingonrance. The Eastern and South Ukraine is a Russia. It was attached to the Ukraine be the bloody communist criminals. Look at the map http://13571113.blogspot.com/2014/03/republic-of-novorossiya.html http://13571113.blogspot.com/2014/03/republic-of-novorossiya... New government of Ukraine is neonazi, installed by the US during this winter. This is done second time. First time it happened in 2004, why american citizen Uschenko has imposed antisoviet propaganda in the school program, the WWII nazi criminal, Stepan Bandera, was made a national hero. It was indoctrinated a neonazi idea that russians are inborn slaves and biogarbage, russian language was banned. Antisoviet/antirussian brainwashing was absolutely successful but economic programme has failed. Therefore Uschenko has lost the office. But, in 2013, US has re-installed its puppet government in the Ukraine again, by force. How do you react? The new government was much more neonazi (look for "svoboda" party and "far right groups patrolling Kiev"). The first law was to ban the russian language again. They have declared that they will remove the russian fleet (which is located in crimea forever, since Crimea is another Russian land, attached to Ukraine by mistake by Soviet Authority, when ). Now, how do you prove that Russian people (the total population of the Crimea, Doneck, Odessa) should welcome the US-installed russophobic mankurts in Kiev, who chant "slotter the russians" (https://www.google.ee/search?q=москалей+на+ножи https://www.google.ee/search?q=москалей+на+ножи) in their fascist marches? You do not bother to prove that. Your propaganda has already put all shit in your head. 1. Russian people in the Ukraine (almost the half of the pouplation) have all the right to run away from your neonazi puppets. 2. They have full right to live with other russians. 3. Russia has all the right to meet the aspirations of frightented people in Ukraine and defend its national interests, which are the Black Sea fleet, russian population united with the rest of the Russia and no NATO in the Ukraine. You dehumiliate the russian hostages in Ukraine because you want the whole Ukraine to go under Western domination. You want it to separate from the Russia because (as Bzhesinzki puts that) Russia will loose its ability to stand against US Empire only if it looses the Ukraine. You is an imperialist, brainwahsed by the Western propaganda. Crimea has came back home. The "Independent Ukraine" is American, anti-Russia project. The population is russian and feels bad there. It must be ukrainized, turned into ukranians (anti-russians). All russian regions must return back to Russian home, immediately. Start respecting territorial integrity of Sovient Union, not Ukraine. Russia should not let the NATO to expand and install anti-Russian missles in Crimea and Ukraine. Russia did not attach its parts to Ukraine for that. Nato wants the russians to be separated, to live outside the Russia.
AnimalMuppet 12y ago
Well said. But... Putin probably remembers his history. In World War II, Germany nearly overran Russia, and it started from the middle of Poland. If it had been able to start from the eastern border of Ukraine, Russia might well have not survived. So Putin may feel, historically, that Russia's survival is at stake if Ukraine joins NATO. (I am not saying that Putin's desire to control Ukraine is moral or ethical. I am merely saying that it is understandable.)

ajuc 12y ago

Why should people in states bordering Russia care what Russia thinks of their independence and alliances?

Perdition 12y ago
Because that is political reality. Do you see any armies marching to protect Ukraine's territorial integrity? Russia isn't a small state that can be easily threatened, and nobody in the West has the stomach for a real war. I bet Russia could take all of Ukraine with no response beyond a boycott and some air-strikes. P.S. The US has done far worse things than what Russia is currently doing in order to keep South America and the Caribbean within their sphere of influence. Small neighbours of great powers seldom get to exercise real independence.
- nikatwork 12y ago
  How does the US doing bad things justify Russia doing bad things to a territory independent of both? That makes no sense at all. And the fact that Russia can get away with it does not ethically absolve their actions. If we followed your ideas, the Baltic states would never have broken away from Russia. That actually worked out quite well for them.
  - Stolpe 12y ago
    It doesn't justify it, however it explains it.
AnimalMuppet 12y ago
Morally/ethically: They shouldn't. Practically: Because that is the way the world actually works. If you've got a big power like Russia, with a leader that is willing to use that power, then your choices have consequences. You'd better think about those consequences when you're making your choices. [Edit: If you're a neighbor to a big power like Russia, then your choices have consequences. The point was not that Russia's choices have consequences, but that Ukraine's do.)