6 ms·

Silverlight: Good for Adobe, Bad for Microsoft

23 points by bbuffone 17y ago

rbanffy 17y ago
"Adobe should rejoice that Microsoft is competing with Adobe on its own turf (i.e., media plug-ins) rather than putting all its energy, as it once did, into Web standards and innovation." Microsoft putting all its strenghts in standards and innovation?! On what planet does the author live?
- wglb 17y ago
  I was wondering if I was asleep when that happened, cause I sure missed it. Both parts.
  - jeremychone 17y ago
    I am the first to bash Microsoft when they deserve it, but I think that we should also give credit when due. IE 5 was the most standard compliant browser on its time, and yes, Microsoft did invented AJAX. So, we could thank them for that.
    - wglb 17y ago
      Well, they have done some innovation, but my memory includes them buying a C compiler company, buying an operating system, hiring Cutler to do an OS after he had already done two or three, doing C# which looks a lot like java in most all respects (and hiring the author of Turbo Pascal to do that). My recollection is also that they have been very behind on the web, and may still be. So in my book they are a bit behind in the innovation department. IE 5 was some time ago. A more recent view on the approach to standards is at http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/03/02/On-OOXML http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/03/02/On-OOXML particularly in the paragraph titled "Con: Standards Process Abuse".
    - ZeroGravitas 17y ago
      I was under the impression that IE5 for Mac (with its Tasman rendering engine) was the most standard compliant browser at that time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasman_(layout_engine) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasman_(layout_engine) And it proved how ahead of its time it was by also being abandoned by Microsoft before they allowed IE6 to stagnate on Windows when they realised that good browsers and a viable web weren't in their business interests. The author is correct that if Micrsoft went full bore for web standards, not only would they be commiting suicide by undermining their own Office and desktop OS monopolies, they'd destroy Adobe in the process. Luckily for Adobe they're not taking that course. (I really can't tell if you're serious about thanking Microsoft for AJAX, being forced to build rickety technologies on top of whatever random ActiveX functionality they leave lying around isn't something I'm thankful for)
- jeremychone 17y ago
  It did, when they built IE 5. IE 5 was much more robust and standard compliant than Netscape 4.x (and I am an ex-Netscape)
- rbanffy 17y ago
  Oh boy... On a normal day saying bad things about Microsoft is a sure way to get downvoted. Today, when I want to get a couple down-votes to reach a 1337-point karma, I get upvoted... Go figure...
  - rbanffy 17y ago
    Thanks. 1 down, 53 to go.
WilliamLP 17y ago
> with SVG, Canvas, Smil, HTML 5, Video, and CSS3 The elephant in the room is that Javascript is just not a good language to develop in, most especially for the kind of culture and processes that Flash developers use. It is difficult to maintain, it plays terribly when different people with different coding styles interact, and most of all it is extremely browser dependent, in terms of the behaviour you can expect to see, and equally importantly for the dramatic differences in performance you get. What do all Javascript libraries have in common? They all provide a twisty nightmare of little passages when you try to combine more than one with all of the interactions between global variables and dynamic operations. Having seen the work process that Flash developers use, I wonder why anyone can even begin to imagine that some offspring of HTML and Javascript can ever even begin to make inroads there.
- jeremychone 17y ago
  Ok, kind of a valid point. However, for our enterprise SaaS application, we have standardize on JQuery, and with a set of best practices, we have a very strong and powerful application model on top of JS/DOM. The dynamic nature of the Web could be a unique asset to build large enterprise application. But, yes, I would also agree that Javascript/DOM gives many ropes to people to hang themselves. However, we should not blame the ropes if they do.
- iron_ball 17y ago
  Flash developer here. Actionscript is actually extremely similar to Javascript -- it's ECMAscript with adornments. The problems with "Javascript" are actually problems with the DOM. Actionscript programmers should be very comfortable with Javascript; but programmers accustomed to the sane APIs of AS3 and Flex naturally recoil from the seething pestilence of browser and library compatibility issues that characterizes AJAX development.
  - WilliamLP 17y ago
    > with adornments Including a reasonable standard object system. With Javascript, different brilliant people have different ideas about how to handle objects and prototypes and have "wonderful" ideas for dynamically adding mix-ins, and manipulating what "this" should refer to... All of this leads to an absolute nightmare of coordination. The danger isn't as much with newbie programmers but with brilliant programmers who have individual styles and strong opinions. (And all strong programmers have strong and individual styles and opinions.)
rbanffy 17y ago
Hi folks. I am conducting an experiment (this is phase 2) and need about 50 downvotes. Would you please downvote this post?
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- rbanffy 17y ago
  No! Not the up arrow! The down arrow!
- swilliams 17y ago
  If you keep spamming this, I imagine you'll find out what it's like to be banned.
  - rbanffy 17y ago
    The voting system is designed so that posts like this go down the list and become invisible and harmless. It's people who keep voting them up the list that make the annoying. I assume they find some humorous compensation by voting me up instead of down, keeping the post up the list as some kind of trophy... All in all, the whole experiment is somewhat fun. Not that I will try it again.
- shabda 17y ago
  Hi Guys. I am conducting an experiment would you please Downvote the parent and upvote me? PS. WHere is Phase 1?
navid 17y ago
The article was very interesting. Looking at the issue of the relationship between Microsoft and Adobe from a new point of view. I agree with the core concept that silverlight and flash are in one front against fully open standards like HTML 5. But I think both Microsoft and Adobe are in both sides of the battle between RIAs using open standards and proprietary plugins. They know they should contribute to open standards.

23 points by bbuffone 17y ago

"Adobe should rejoice that Microsoft is competing with Adobe on its own turf (i.e., media plug-ins) rather than putting all its energy, as it once did, into Web standards and innovation." Microsoft putting all its strenghts in standards and innovation?! On what planet does the author live?

wglb 17y ago
I was wondering if I was asleep when that happened, cause I sure missed it. Both parts.
- jeremychone 17y ago
  I am the first to bash Microsoft when they deserve it, but I think that we should also give credit when due. IE 5 was the most standard compliant browser on its time, and yes, Microsoft did invented AJAX. So, we could thank them for that.
  - wglb 17y ago
    Well, they have done some innovation, but my memory includes them buying a C compiler company, buying an operating system, hiring Cutler to do an OS after he had already done two or three, doing C# which looks a lot like java in most all respects (and hiring the author of Turbo Pascal to do that). My recollection is also that they have been very behind on the web, and may still be. So in my book they are a bit behind in the innovation department. IE 5 was some time ago. A more recent view on the approach to standards is at http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/03/02/On-OOXML http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/03/02/On-OOXML particularly in the paragraph titled "Con: Standards Process Abuse".
  - ZeroGravitas 17y ago
    I was under the impression that IE5 for Mac (with its Tasman rendering engine) was the most standard compliant browser at that time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasman_(layout_engine) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasman_(layout_engine) And it proved how ahead of its time it was by also being abandoned by Microsoft before they allowed IE6 to stagnate on Windows when they realised that good browsers and a viable web weren't in their business interests. The author is correct that if Micrsoft went full bore for web standards, not only would they be commiting suicide by undermining their own Office and desktop OS monopolies, they'd destroy Adobe in the process. Luckily for Adobe they're not taking that course. (I really can't tell if you're serious about thanking Microsoft for AJAX, being forced to build rickety technologies on top of whatever random ActiveX functionality they leave lying around isn't something I'm thankful for)
jeremychone 17y ago
It did, when they built IE 5. IE 5 was much more robust and standard compliant than Netscape 4.x (and I am an ex-Netscape)
rbanffy 17y ago
Oh boy... On a normal day saying bad things about Microsoft is a sure way to get downvoted. Today, when I want to get a couple down-votes to reach a 1337-point karma, I get upvoted... Go figure...
- rbanffy 17y ago
  Thanks. 1 down, 53 to go.

WilliamLP 17y ago

> with SVG, Canvas, Smil, HTML 5, Video, and CSS3 The elephant in the room is that Javascript is just not a good language to develop in, most especially for the kind of culture and processes that Flash developers use. It is difficult to maintain, it plays terribly when different people with different coding styles interact, and most of all it is extremely browser dependent, in terms of the behaviour you can expect to see, and equally importantly for the dramatic differences in performance you get. What do all Javascript libraries have in common? They all provide a twisty nightmare of little passages when you try to combine more than one with all of the interactions between global variables and dynamic operations. Having seen the work process that Flash developers use, I wonder why anyone can even begin to imagine that some offspring of HTML and Javascript can ever even begin to make inroads there.

jeremychone 17y ago
Ok, kind of a valid point. However, for our enterprise SaaS application, we have standardize on JQuery, and with a set of best practices, we have a very strong and powerful application model on top of JS/DOM. The dynamic nature of the Web could be a unique asset to build large enterprise application. But, yes, I would also agree that Javascript/DOM gives many ropes to people to hang themselves. However, we should not blame the ropes if they do.
iron_ball 17y ago
Flash developer here. Actionscript is actually extremely similar to Javascript -- it's ECMAscript with adornments. The problems with "Javascript" are actually problems with the DOM. Actionscript programmers should be very comfortable with Javascript; but programmers accustomed to the sane APIs of AS3 and Flex naturally recoil from the seething pestilence of browser and library compatibility issues that characterizes AJAX development.
- WilliamLP 17y ago
  > with adornments Including a reasonable standard object system. With Javascript, different brilliant people have different ideas about how to handle objects and prototypes and have "wonderful" ideas for dynamically adding mix-ins, and manipulating what "this" should refer to... All of this leads to an absolute nightmare of coordination. The danger isn't as much with newbie programmers but with brilliant programmers who have individual styles and strong opinions. (And all strong programmers have strong and individual styles and opinions.)

rbanffy 17y ago

Hi folks. I am conducting an experiment (this is phase 2) and need about 50 downvotes. Would you please downvote this post?

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
rbanffy 17y ago
No! Not the up arrow! The down arrow!
swilliams 17y ago
If you keep spamming this, I imagine you'll find out what it's like to be banned.
- rbanffy 17y ago
  The voting system is designed so that posts like this go down the list and become invisible and harmless. It's people who keep voting them up the list that make the annoying. I assume they find some humorous compensation by voting me up instead of down, keeping the post up the list as some kind of trophy... All in all, the whole experiment is somewhat fun. Not that I will try it again.
shabda 17y ago
Hi Guys. I am conducting an experiment would you please Downvote the parent and upvote me? PS. WHere is Phase 1?

navid 17y ago

The article was very interesting. Looking at the issue of the relationship between Microsoft and Adobe from a new point of view. I agree with the core concept that silverlight and flash are in one front against fully open standards like HTML 5. But I think both Microsoft and Adobe are in both sides of the battle between RIAs using open standards and proprietary plugins. They know they should contribute to open standards.