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You are suggesting that the lawyer can help in two ways: 1. Negotiations 2. Understanding the legal situation Regarding the second point, the correct advice

by Hermel 13y ago

You are suggesting that the lawyer can help in two ways: 1. Negotiations 2. Understanding the legal situation Regarding the second point, the correct advice is not to sign contracts whose consequences you do not understand. Regarding the first point, engaging a lawyer will destroy whatever trust and mutual understanding is left in the relationship between the founders. This might be the US way of doing things. But before telling someone to hire a lawyer, you should make sure that the case in question is not taking place in a country where doing this is generally taken as a big offense.

ceejayoz 13y ago
A non-lawyer is going to have a very hard time ensuring they understand the consequences of a contract if it's cleverly written to fuck them.
- Hermel 13y ago
  Normally, when founding a company, there is trust among the founders and they do not try to fuck each other with maliciously written contracts.
  - ceejayoz 13y ago
    Trust is often misplaced, and there are plenty of people who seem nice initially while working to screw you.
    - stretchwithme 13y ago
      When you write a contract designed to screw the other party, you run the risk of being discovered.
      - ceejayoz 13y ago
        And when you're screwing someone who holds to the "no lawyers because you're supposed to trust your cofounders" approach that risk is generally greatly diminished.
        stretchwithme 13y ago
        That's true. Which is why you should trust...but verify.
Silhouette 13y ago
Regarding the second point, the correct advice is not to sign contracts whose consequences you do not understand. Ideally, yes, but it sounds like that ship sailed already. Regarding the first point, engaging a lawyer will destroy whatever trust and mutual understanding is left in the relationship between the founders. You don't have to tell them you hired a lawyer at first, when you're just looking for some basic advice about what your situation really is. If it goes further and your lawyer is actively representing you when dealing with other people in a business context, and those other people take offence at this or it destroys trust, then you never really had a worthwhile relationship with them to begin with and you definitely want a lawyer in your corner.
angrybits 13y ago
Offending the people trying to screw you out of your earned rights and compensation should not be at the top of your list of things to avoid.
- hga 13y ago
  One of the few paths to success is patching things up with the CEO if that's feasible and desirable.
- Hermel 13y ago
  We don't know whether they want to screw him. All we know is that the hired CTO thinks that he is incompetent and thus should leave the company. The first thing he should do in this situation is to talk to the CEO, and not running to a lawyer or consulting hacker news.
dmoney 13y ago
> But before telling someone to hire a lawyer, you should make sure that the case in question is not taking place in a country where doing this is generally taken as a big offense. Interesting. Can you give an example of such a place, and how things tend to work there? What would be your advice to the founder if they were in that country?
- Hermel 13y ago
  Continental European countries usually work that way. When Germans say "die sprechen nur noch über ihre Anwälte" (translation: they used to have a good relationship but now they only speak through their lawyers to each other), it means that the trust between two parties is broken beyond repair. Generally, by unilaterally involving a lawyer, you signal that there is no hope left to settle disputes on a basis of trust and friendship. Consequently, my advise to the founder would be to discuss the situation with the co-founders and then try to do what's best for the company. The first priority should always be to find a solution by talking directly to each other. Telling the founder to hire a lawyer before having had an open discussion with the CEO is really bad advice.
  - roel_v 13y ago
    Eh, no, also in Germany it's perfectly normal to have a lawyer consulting on business matters with potential big impacts.
    - Hermel 13y ago
      Not to the same degree. The US spends a much higher share of GDP on lawyers than most other countries. What I find disgusting is the culture of hiring a lawyer to put as many traps as possible into a contract, which forces the other party to hire another lawyer to remove the traps again. This does not make anyone better off except for the lawyers. Healthy and lasting business relationships are built on trust. The relationship between McDonald's and Coca-Cola is based on a simple hand-shake. If you want to preserve such a relationship and it comes to a disagreement, the first thing you should do is talking to each other. Once that fails, you can consult the lawyer - which will formalize everything and slow the process down (e.g. "I cannot disuss this today because I have to check with my lawyer first"). And being slow is one of the things one should avoid when being in a startup.

by Hermel 13y ago

ceejayoz 13y ago

A non-lawyer is going to have a very hard time ensuring they understand the consequences of a contract if it's cleverly written to fuck them.

Hermel 13y ago
Normally, when founding a company, there is trust among the founders and they do not try to fuck each other with maliciously written contracts.
- ceejayoz 13y ago
  Trust is often misplaced, and there are plenty of people who seem nice initially while working to screw you.
  - stretchwithme 13y ago
    When you write a contract designed to screw the other party, you run the risk of being discovered.
    - ceejayoz 13y ago
      And when you're screwing someone who holds to the "no lawyers because you're supposed to trust your cofounders" approach that risk is generally greatly diminished.
      - stretchwithme 13y ago
        That's true. Which is why you should trust...but verify.

Silhouette 13y ago

Regarding the second point, the correct advice is not to sign contracts whose consequences you do not understand. Ideally, yes, but it sounds like that ship sailed already. Regarding the first point, engaging a lawyer will destroy whatever trust and mutual understanding is left in the relationship between the founders. You don't have to tell them you hired a lawyer at first, when you're just looking for some basic advice about what your situation really is. If it goes further and your lawyer is actively representing you when dealing with other people in a business context, and those other people take offence at this or it destroys trust, then you never really had a worthwhile relationship with them to begin with and you definitely want a lawyer in your corner.

angrybits 13y ago

Offending the people trying to screw you out of your earned rights and compensation should not be at the top of your list of things to avoid.

hga 13y ago
One of the few paths to success is patching things up with the CEO if that's feasible and desirable.
Hermel 13y ago
We don't know whether they want to screw him. All we know is that the hired CTO thinks that he is incompetent and thus should leave the company. The first thing he should do in this situation is to talk to the CEO, and not running to a lawyer or consulting hacker news.

dmoney 13y ago

> But before telling someone to hire a lawyer, you should make sure that the case in question is not taking place in a country where doing this is generally taken as a big offense. Interesting. Can you give an example of such a place, and how things tend to work there? What would be your advice to the founder if they were in that country?

Hermel 13y ago
Continental European countries usually work that way. When Germans say "die sprechen nur noch über ihre Anwälte" (translation: they used to have a good relationship but now they only speak through their lawyers to each other), it means that the trust between two parties is broken beyond repair. Generally, by unilaterally involving a lawyer, you signal that there is no hope left to settle disputes on a basis of trust and friendship. Consequently, my advise to the founder would be to discuss the situation with the co-founders and then try to do what's best for the company. The first priority should always be to find a solution by talking directly to each other. Telling the founder to hire a lawyer before having had an open discussion with the CEO is really bad advice.
- roel_v 13y ago
  Eh, no, also in Germany it's perfectly normal to have a lawyer consulting on business matters with potential big impacts.
  - Hermel 13y ago
    Not to the same degree. The US spends a much higher share of GDP on lawyers than most other countries. What I find disgusting is the culture of hiring a lawyer to put as many traps as possible into a contract, which forces the other party to hire another lawyer to remove the traps again. This does not make anyone better off except for the lawyers. Healthy and lasting business relationships are built on trust. The relationship between McDonald's and Coca-Cola is based on a simple hand-shake. If you want to preserve such a relationship and it comes to a disagreement, the first thing you should do is talking to each other. Once that fails, you can consult the lawyer - which will formalize everything and slow the process down (e.g. "I cannot disuss this today because I have to check with my lawyer first"). And being slow is one of the things one should avoid when being in a startup.