7 ms·

This is a real nuisance, but the author seems to be going about it in the wrong way (which is confusing, because the author is a super-long-time NeXT/Obj-C deve

by numair 13y ago

This is a real nuisance, but the author seems to be going about it in the wrong way (which is confusing, because the author is a super-long-time NeXT/Obj-C developer who probably has contacts at Apple to help resolve the issue). I'm subscribed to all of the relevant Apple mailing lists for Cocoa/Obj-C and yet the first I've heard about this issue is through a blog linked on Hacker News; why? Why not have a friendly conversation about Apple regarding their use of open source Obj-C code, and the problems it creates with their method blacklist? The fact that Apple is using mogenerator is a good thing, isn't it? It seems that an interim solution would be to patch mogenerator to generate a different name/prefix for these methods, with the name set via an option flag or something. If the author would rather wage a religious war with Apple over this, well, time to fork... (And if someone creates such a solution, it'd be great if you could post a link here!) (Retzsch probably has good reasons, based on past interactions, on why he's going about things this way, but we've got to be pragmatic here.) -- EDIT: Since it seems that people aren't familiar with them, here is a link to Apple's mailing lists. Browse the archives and you'll see that Apple engineers do, in fact, read and reply to things on there. https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo

mikeash 13y ago
Contacts with the app review team are scarce, and they can be obstinate even if you do manage to find somebody to talk to. That whole area is straight out of Kafka.
- numair 13y ago
  There's the (relatively) micro-scale issue of individual apps being rejected, and the macro-scale issue of Apple utilizing open source projects and putting their methods in their list of private, disallowed method names. This seems like the exact sort of macro-scale issue for which Apple maintains mailing lists viewed by actual engineers. I just don't see how publicly attacking Apple over this is going to lead to any sort of positive situation, especially for the author and his relationship with people at Apple. Mogenerator is super-useful, but if it's going to be the centerpiece of some sort of political statement regarding Apple's policies, developers such as myself are going to have to look elsewhere to get their work done. -- EDIT: I'm sure you already know about these mailing lists...? https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo ... The fact that you guys want to publicly attack Apple over this, while staking your entire careers on developing for Apple's platforms, is insanity. A course on politics is in order.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    Which engineers maintain the private API scanner? What mailing list do they hang out on? I've been in the community a long time and I have no idea about either one. They are effectively anonymous and uncontactable as far as I know. Publicly attacking Apple is actually the only way I know to actually start the conversation. If you know a better way then I would sincerely like to hear it, but you need to provide specifics, not just assumptions that it must be possible. Response to your edit: give me specifics. Yes, I know about those mailing lists. They are useless for this. None of those host anyone who has anything to do with App Store review. Give me an exact email address or a contact form or a phone number or something that you know actually goes to the right people here, or admit that you don't know how. Insisting that it must be possible without saying how when others with more experience are saying that it is not is just embarrassing.
    - lnguyen 13y ago
      Why would you expect anyone in that position to expose themselves publicly? Although they could give useful feedback, it wouldn't be in their interest to deal with these issues outside of a formal process. Unless of course it's in their job title to handle developer relations. Even then it'd be more setting up coordination and less anything technical. Granted without knowing what exactly that process could be accessed or what it is, I agree that you need to do something to "start the conversation." However, attacking is unlikely to achieve the results you want. This is especially true considering the imbalance in your relationship with Apple. I've worked a number of years in enterprise software and for large enterprises. You have to learn how to bring attention to issues and escalate them constructively and professionally. You also learn that you don't always get what you want. Do the blog posts but be aware of the tone. Use the mailing lists. Get others to raise their voice and show that it isn't an isolated incident. In the meantime, since the issue is out there and details are known, workarounds need to be figured out that can be implemented. Short-term, there should be things that can be done by app developers. Longer-term, a solution probably needs to be put in place in the project that will address the needs of both app developers and Apple. (Apple dropping use of the project may be a possibility but I don't see that as a win for anyone.) Also realize that an app developer "losing an entire afternoon" is minor in the grand scheme of things. However inconvenient it may be to be that developer, unless it's an absolute show-stopper, any reaction or solution will take time if one is implemented at all.
lnanek2 13y ago
You claim otherwise, but it is generally not possible to have a meaningful discussion about why your app is rejected. Even when you do the person you are communicating with is not an engineer, just someone going through a checklist. As someone with some iOS apps out there, my only chance to communicate with an engineer is to go to wwdc.
- coob 13y ago
  Or raising a DTS issue, of which you get 2 per year as part of your iOS developer account and can buy more.
  - teacup50 13y ago
    Which also will not, in most circumstances, illicit a useful response. Could Apple-enamored newbies please stop trying to tell multi-decade Apple developers how to deal with Apple?
    - duncan_bayne 13y ago
      Reminds me of my time (10+ years) as a Microsoft developer. People who cite "professional support" as a benefit of closed systems like Apple's and Microsoft's have either never experienced it, or work for an organisation with the sort of clout that gets you access to people who can actually help.
    - coob 13y ago
      1) I was referring to the last sentence's notion of the only way of communicating with an Apple engineer is at WWDC. You can talk to engineers via DTS if it gets bumped up enough. 2) I wasn't aware of the need to post a photo of me with my SE/30 and HyperCard manuals before commenting on Apple development issues.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    The TS in DTS stands for Technical Support. They don't help with app review problems.
Gigablah 13y ago
Even if he has contacts at Apple who can resolve the situation for him, according to his tweet (linked at the bottom of the article) he lost an entire afternoon addressing it. I imagine he's really annoyed.
- gress 13y ago
  He won't be the first person to lose an afternoon dealing with a vendor's bug.

by numair 13y ago

mikeash 13y ago

Contacts with the app review team are scarce, and they can be obstinate even if you do manage to find somebody to talk to. That whole area is straight out of Kafka.

numair 13y ago
There's the (relatively) micro-scale issue of individual apps being rejected, and the macro-scale issue of Apple utilizing open source projects and putting their methods in their list of private, disallowed method names. This seems like the exact sort of macro-scale issue for which Apple maintains mailing lists viewed by actual engineers. I just don't see how publicly attacking Apple over this is going to lead to any sort of positive situation, especially for the author and his relationship with people at Apple. Mogenerator is super-useful, but if it's going to be the centerpiece of some sort of political statement regarding Apple's policies, developers such as myself are going to have to look elsewhere to get their work done. -- EDIT: I'm sure you already know about these mailing lists...? https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo ... The fact that you guys want to publicly attack Apple over this, while staking your entire careers on developing for Apple's platforms, is insanity. A course on politics is in order.
- mikeash 13y ago
  Which engineers maintain the private API scanner? What mailing list do they hang out on? I've been in the community a long time and I have no idea about either one. They are effectively anonymous and uncontactable as far as I know. Publicly attacking Apple is actually the only way I know to actually start the conversation. If you know a better way then I would sincerely like to hear it, but you need to provide specifics, not just assumptions that it must be possible. Response to your edit: give me specifics. Yes, I know about those mailing lists. They are useless for this. None of those host anyone who has anything to do with App Store review. Give me an exact email address or a contact form or a phone number or something that you know actually goes to the right people here, or admit that you don't know how. Insisting that it must be possible without saying how when others with more experience are saying that it is not is just embarrassing.
  - lnguyen 13y ago
    Why would you expect anyone in that position to expose themselves publicly? Although they could give useful feedback, it wouldn't be in their interest to deal with these issues outside of a formal process. Unless of course it's in their job title to handle developer relations. Even then it'd be more setting up coordination and less anything technical. Granted without knowing what exactly that process could be accessed or what it is, I agree that you need to do something to "start the conversation." However, attacking is unlikely to achieve the results you want. This is especially true considering the imbalance in your relationship with Apple. I've worked a number of years in enterprise software and for large enterprises. You have to learn how to bring attention to issues and escalate them constructively and professionally. You also learn that you don't always get what you want. Do the blog posts but be aware of the tone. Use the mailing lists. Get others to raise their voice and show that it isn't an isolated incident. In the meantime, since the issue is out there and details are known, workarounds need to be figured out that can be implemented. Short-term, there should be things that can be done by app developers. Longer-term, a solution probably needs to be put in place in the project that will address the needs of both app developers and Apple. (Apple dropping use of the project may be a possibility but I don't see that as a win for anyone.) Also realize that an app developer "losing an entire afternoon" is minor in the grand scheme of things. However inconvenient it may be to be that developer, unless it's an absolute show-stopper, any reaction or solution will take time if one is implemented at all.

lnanek2 13y ago

You claim otherwise, but it is generally not possible to have a meaningful discussion about why your app is rejected. Even when you do the person you are communicating with is not an engineer, just someone going through a checklist. As someone with some iOS apps out there, my only chance to communicate with an engineer is to go to wwdc.

coob 13y ago
Or raising a DTS issue, of which you get 2 per year as part of your iOS developer account and can buy more.
- teacup50 13y ago
  Which also will not, in most circumstances, illicit a useful response. Could Apple-enamored newbies please stop trying to tell multi-decade Apple developers how to deal with Apple?
  - duncan_bayne 13y ago
    Reminds me of my time (10+ years) as a Microsoft developer. People who cite "professional support" as a benefit of closed systems like Apple's and Microsoft's have either never experienced it, or work for an organisation with the sort of clout that gets you access to people who can actually help.
  - coob 13y ago
    1) I was referring to the last sentence's notion of the only way of communicating with an Apple engineer is at WWDC. You can talk to engineers via DTS if it gets bumped up enough. 2) I wasn't aware of the need to post a photo of me with my SE/30 and HyperCard manuals before commenting on Apple development issues.
- mikeash 13y ago
  The TS in DTS stands for Technical Support. They don't help with app review problems.

Gigablah 13y ago

Even if he has contacts at Apple who can resolve the situation for him, according to his tweet (linked at the bottom of the article) he lost an entire afternoon addressing it. I imagine he's really annoyed.

gress 13y ago
He won't be the first person to lose an afternoon dealing with a vendor's bug.