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I'm honestly not sure what point you are trying to make. That US CS programs aren't as rigorous as foreign programs? That US CS programs aren't also filled with

I'm honestly not sure what point you are trying to make. That US CS programs aren't as rigorous as foreign programs? That US CS programs aren't also filled with foreign students, further displacing and out pricing citizens? My point is, we have 1.7 Million college educated grads currently unemployed[0]. We have an estimated 650,000 H1B workers[1]. I'd say we have plenty of educated, hard working, and able citizens to fill these positions. [0]http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm [1]https://cis.org/estimating-h1b-population-2-11 https://cis.org/estimating-h1b-population-2-11

_of 13y ago
Look at any academic institution in the US in the life sciences. If you would take away the Europeans and Asians, what would be left?
- a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
  The field would become more attractive to Americans and they would fill the empty places.
  - insuffi 13y ago
    How would that make the field more attractive? If the aforementioned Europeans and Asians left, and Americans moved in afterwards, aren't you essentially implying Americans cannot keep up with them?
    - a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
      No, I'm implying that a lot of capable Americans prefer not to work in fields flooded with foreigners. The status attached to working in the field would improve and attract more native candidates.
      - insuffi 13y ago
        You do realize you're implying that Americans are xenophobic?
        a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
        Held to the proper degree xenophobia is a normal, healthy instinct in all cultures.
        insuffi 13y ago
        I don't see how not joining a field just because it consists of certain amount of foreigners is a healthy, normal instinct.
        coryrc 13y ago
        It is because of secondary effects -- larger supply of foreign workers drives down the wages, now and in the future. Except the whole "software eating the world" thing that might be the exception that proves the rule.
        chetanahuja 13y ago
        "Held to the proper degree xenophobia is a normal, healthy instinct in all cultures" That may be, but I'm not sure you know what the words "normal" "healthy" or "proper" mean.
    - jquery 13y ago
      Americans can't keep up with outsourced foreign factory workers, either. Americans are unwilling to get paid $5/day.
      - insuffi 13y ago
        Except we're not talking about outsourced work, and not about unqualified work either. Great job misrepresenting and misunderstanding what the issue is about. The only reason prices are so low is because it's all outsourced. If you want Americans to do the work of the SEA and China, then you're going to pay a lot more for your shit. Those low prices are the only thing that a lot of people rely on their livelihood for.
makmanalp 13y ago
There are many assumptions here that you should question. - That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed work in the same field as the H-1B workers. H-1B workers tend to commonly be in engineering / science / medecine / etc. Mostly Bachelors in Science degrees. The most common majors in the US are mostly BA degrees. You can't just plop those people into what they're not trained in. - That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed are unemployed because of H1B workers, and that if those workers weren't there, the unemployed college grads would be employed. - That any worker can be anywhere at any time. If a company is in North Dakota and needs a programmer, it doesn't matter that there are 1000 unemployed American programmers in New York. - That when someone graduates, they're able to perform their profession up to the standard required. That they are "good". This should be laughable if you've ever been to any college short of the top 30. 1.7 million graduates don't mean 1.7 million desirable employees. Unemployment sure is a huge problem, but I think you might be barking up the wrong tree here if you're looking for a cause. Getting rid of the H-1B is not going to help much, from what I can tell.
- djb_hackernews 13y ago
  > - That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed work in the same field as the H-1B workers. H-1B workers tend to commonly be in engineering / science / medecine / etc. Mostly Bachelors in Science degrees. The most common majors in the US are mostly BA degrees. You can't just plop those people into what they're not trained in. I don't believe that a Bachelors degree necessarily limits your career options. Holding a four year degree basically means you are trainable, committed, and follow the rules. The ideal employee. I'm willing to disagree on this point. > - That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed are unemployed because of H1B workers, and that if those workers weren't there, the unemployed college grads would be employed. I made no such statement. > - That any worker can be anywhere at any time. If a company is in North Dakota and needs a programmer, it doesn't matter that there are 1000 unemployed American programmers in New York. This comment makes no sense when we are talking about foreign workers who have to cross continents and oceans to get to North Dakota > - That when someone graduates, they're able to perform their profession up to the standard required. That they are "good". This should be laughable if you've ever been to any college short of the top 30. 1.7 million graduates don't mean 1.7 million desirable employees. I think you are just repeating your first point here. I'd be willing to bet 90% of H1Bs don't hold degrees from the top 30, or whatever arbitrary cutoff you have. I'm not interested in pedigree. 1.7 million graduates should certainly be 1.7 million desirable employees (or at least 650k), and if it isn't, then it sounds like we found the root cause. > Unemployment sure is a huge problem, but I think you might be barking up the wrong tree here if you're looking for a cause. Getting rid of the H-1B is not going to help much, from what I can tell. I never once suggested that H1B is the cause of unemployment.
Crito 13y ago
How many of those 1.7 Million unemployed US college grads refused to consider market demand when they were choosing their major, because they were mistakenly lead to believe that either "Any college degree is good enough for any job, because it is still the 1950s." or "I shouldn't have to consider employment when picking my major because I should be able to study whatever I find intellectually gratifying and society will then owe me a good job in fields that I did not study."? Perhaps my university was unusually good (I do not believe that) but all of the people in my graduating CS class that I still have contact with are happily employed. I know this because about once a year I ping them asking if they want recommendations at my company... I'm trying to get those sweet referral bonuses... > "The foreign workers aren't actually that high skilled and their education is questionable." I work alongside many H1B people. They are all highly competent.
- djb_hackernews 13y ago
  A point I made above, but I don't really think a 4 year degree decides your future, it just shows you are trainable and can commit to something. I've worked with plenty of water walker software developers that didn't have a CS degree to know this is true. > I work alongside many H1B people. They are all highly competent. I work along side a lot of H1B people. They are all kind, smart, and competent. But they are people, there is nothing special about them, which was the whole point of the H1B program.
  - insuffi 13y ago
    If there's nothing special about them, why are companies hiring them? The usual "cheap workarz" angle is irrelevant. They all get market rates. Not to mention businesses having to sponsor relocation and the actual visas. Surely you're not suggesting a business would bear H1B related overhead for no reason, unless they would be forced to do so.
    - djb_hackernews 13y ago
      I don't fault for employers for using the system they are given to cut costs, but that's all it is. I'd be fine if it were an immigration visa, but these worker visa programs have no oversight and there is no conversation at the decision making level representing the american worker. the cheap labor angle isn't irrelevant just because you say so. It's been documented that a) there are plenty of STEM graduates b) H1B workers are under paid[0] [0] https://www.google.com/#q=h1b+workers+underpaid https://www.google.com/#q=h1b+workers+underpaid

_of 13y ago

Look at any academic institution in the US in the life sciences. If you would take away the Europeans and Asians, what would be left?

a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
The field would become more attractive to Americans and they would fill the empty places.
- insuffi 13y ago
  How would that make the field more attractive? If the aforementioned Europeans and Asians left, and Americans moved in afterwards, aren't you essentially implying Americans cannot keep up with them?
  - a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
    No, I'm implying that a lot of capable Americans prefer not to work in fields flooded with foreigners. The status attached to working in the field would improve and attract more native candidates.
    - insuffi 13y ago
      You do realize you're implying that Americans are xenophobic?
      - a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
        Held to the proper degree xenophobia is a normal, healthy instinct in all cultures.
        insuffi 13y ago
        I don't see how not joining a field just because it consists of certain amount of foreigners is a healthy, normal instinct.
        coryrc 13y ago
        It is because of secondary effects -- larger supply of foreign workers drives down the wages, now and in the future. Except the whole "software eating the world" thing that might be the exception that proves the rule.
        chetanahuja 13y ago
        "Held to the proper degree xenophobia is a normal, healthy instinct in all cultures" That may be, but I'm not sure you know what the words "normal" "healthy" or "proper" mean.
  - jquery 13y ago
    Americans can't keep up with outsourced foreign factory workers, either. Americans are unwilling to get paid $5/day.
    - insuffi 13y ago
      Except we're not talking about outsourced work, and not about unqualified work either. Great job misrepresenting and misunderstanding what the issue is about. The only reason prices are so low is because it's all outsourced. If you want Americans to do the work of the SEA and China, then you're going to pay a lot more for your shit. Those low prices are the only thing that a lot of people rely on their livelihood for.

makmanalp 13y ago

There are many assumptions here that you should question. - That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed work in the same field as the H-1B workers. H-1B workers tend to commonly be in engineering / science / medecine / etc. Mostly Bachelors in Science degrees. The most common majors in the US are mostly BA degrees. You can't just plop those people into what they're not trained in. - That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed are unemployed because of H1B workers, and that if those workers weren't there, the unemployed college grads would be employed. - That any worker can be anywhere at any time. If a company is in North Dakota and needs a programmer, it doesn't matter that there are 1000 unemployed American programmers in New York. - That when someone graduates, they're able to perform their profession up to the standard required. That they are "good". This should be laughable if you've ever been to any college short of the top 30. 1.7 million graduates don't mean 1.7 million desirable employees. Unemployment sure is a huge problem, but I think you might be barking up the wrong tree here if you're looking for a cause. Getting rid of the H-1B is not going to help much, from what I can tell.

djb_hackernews 13y ago
> - That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed work in the same field as the H-1B workers. H-1B workers tend to commonly be in engineering / science / medecine / etc. Mostly Bachelors in Science degrees. The most common majors in the US are mostly BA degrees. You can't just plop those people into what they're not trained in. I don't believe that a Bachelors degree necessarily limits your career options. Holding a four year degree basically means you are trainable, committed, and follow the rules. The ideal employee. I'm willing to disagree on this point. > - That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed are unemployed because of H1B workers, and that if those workers weren't there, the unemployed college grads would be employed. I made no such statement. > - That any worker can be anywhere at any time. If a company is in North Dakota and needs a programmer, it doesn't matter that there are 1000 unemployed American programmers in New York. This comment makes no sense when we are talking about foreign workers who have to cross continents and oceans to get to North Dakota > - That when someone graduates, they're able to perform their profession up to the standard required. That they are "good". This should be laughable if you've ever been to any college short of the top 30. 1.7 million graduates don't mean 1.7 million desirable employees. I think you are just repeating your first point here. I'd be willing to bet 90% of H1Bs don't hold degrees from the top 30, or whatever arbitrary cutoff you have. I'm not interested in pedigree. 1.7 million graduates should certainly be 1.7 million desirable employees (or at least 650k), and if it isn't, then it sounds like we found the root cause. > Unemployment sure is a huge problem, but I think you might be barking up the wrong tree here if you're looking for a cause. Getting rid of the H-1B is not going to help much, from what I can tell. I never once suggested that H1B is the cause of unemployment.

Crito 13y ago

How many of those 1.7 Million unemployed US college grads refused to consider market demand when they were choosing their major, because they were mistakenly lead to believe that either "Any college degree is good enough for any job, because it is still the 1950s." or "I shouldn't have to consider employment when picking my major because I should be able to study whatever I find intellectually gratifying and society will then owe me a good job in fields that I did not study."? Perhaps my university was unusually good (I do not believe that) but all of the people in my graduating CS class that I still have contact with are happily employed. I know this because about once a year I ping them asking if they want recommendations at my company... I'm trying to get those sweet referral bonuses... > "The foreign workers aren't actually that high skilled and their education is questionable." I work alongside many H1B people. They are all highly competent.

djb_hackernews 13y ago
A point I made above, but I don't really think a 4 year degree decides your future, it just shows you are trainable and can commit to something. I've worked with plenty of water walker software developers that didn't have a CS degree to know this is true. > I work alongside many H1B people. They are all highly competent. I work along side a lot of H1B people. They are all kind, smart, and competent. But they are people, there is nothing special about them, which was the whole point of the H1B program.
- insuffi 13y ago
  If there's nothing special about them, why are companies hiring them? The usual "cheap workarz" angle is irrelevant. They all get market rates. Not to mention businesses having to sponsor relocation and the actual visas. Surely you're not suggesting a business would bear H1B related overhead for no reason, unless they would be forced to do so.
  - djb_hackernews 13y ago
    I don't fault for employers for using the system they are given to cut costs, but that's all it is. I'd be fine if it were an immigration visa, but these worker visa programs have no oversight and there is no conversation at the decision making level representing the american worker. the cheap labor angle isn't irrelevant just because you say so. It's been documented that a) there are plenty of STEM graduates b) H1B workers are under paid[0] [0] https://www.google.com/#q=h1b+workers+underpaid https://www.google.com/#q=h1b+workers+underpaid