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I'll provide a counter argument. The foreign workers aren't actually that high skilled and their education is questionable. So upon their first paycheck they

I'll provide a counter argument. The foreign workers aren't actually that high skilled and their education is questionable. So upon their first paycheck they are displacing local workers who could also do the job, putting extra pressure on local economies that they didn't "pay into", and giving more power to employers based on the restrictive nature of these foreign worker visas.

ulfw 13y ago
Yea. Because all locals are so highly educated. Have you seen CS departments at major school in the US? Look at the demographics and then think again.
- djb_hackernews 13y ago
  I'm honestly not sure what point you are trying to make. That US CS programs aren't as rigorous as foreign programs? That US CS programs aren't also filled with foreign students, further displacing and out pricing citizens? My point is, we have 1.7 Million college educated grads currently unemployed[0]. We have an estimated 650,000 H1B workers[1]. I'd say we have plenty of educated, hard working, and able citizens to fill these positions. [0]http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm [1]https://cis.org/estimating-h1b-population-2-11 https://cis.org/estimating-h1b-population-2-11
  - _of 13y ago
    Look at any academic institution in the US in the life sciences. If you would take away the Europeans and Asians, what would be left?
    - a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
      The field would become more attractive to Americans and they would fill the empty places.
      - insuffi 13y ago
        How would that make the field more attractive? If the aforementioned Europeans and Asians left, and Americans moved in afterwards, aren't you essentially implying Americans cannot keep up with them?
        a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
        No, I'm implying that a lot of capable Americans prefer not to work in fields flooded with foreigners. The status attached to working in the field would improve and attract more native candidates.
        insuffi 13y ago
        You do realize you're implying that Americans are xenophobic?
        a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
        Held to the proper degree xenophobia is a normal, healthy instinct in all cultures.
        insuffi 13y ago
        I don't see how not joining a field just because it consists of certain amount of foreigners is a healthy, normal instinct.
        coryrc 13y ago
        It is because of secondary effects -- larger supply of foreign workers drives down the wages, now and in the future. Except the whole "software eating the world" thing that might be the exception that proves the rule.
        chetanahuja 13y ago
        "Held to the proper degree xenophobia is a normal, healthy instinct in all cultures" That may be, but I'm not sure you know what the words "normal" "healthy" or "proper" mean.
  - makmanalp 13y ago
    There are many assumptions here that you should question. - That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed work in the same field as the H-1B workers. H-1B workers tend to commonly be in engineering / science / medecine / etc. Mostly Bachelors in Science degrees. The most common majors in the US are mostly BA degrees. You can't just plop those people into what they're not trained in. - That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed are unemployed because of H1B workers, and that if those workers weren't there, the unemployed college grads would be employed. - That any worker can be anywhere at any time. If a company is in North Dakota and needs a programmer, it doesn't matter that there are 1000 unemployed American programmers in New York. - That when someone graduates, they're able to perform their profession up to the standard required. That they are "good". This should be laughable if you've ever been to any college short of the top 30. 1.7 million graduates don't mean 1.7 million desirable employees. Unemployment sure is a huge problem, but I think you might be barking up the wrong tree here if you're looking for a cause. Getting rid of the H-1B is not going to help much, from what I can tell.
    - djb_hackernews 13y ago
      > - That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed work in the same field as the H-1B workers. H-1B workers tend to commonly be in engineering / science / medecine / etc. Mostly Bachelors in Science degrees. The most common majors in the US are mostly BA degrees. You can't just plop those people into what they're not trained in. I don't believe that a Bachelors degree necessarily limits your career options. Holding a four year degree basically means you are trainable, committed, and follow the rules. The ideal employee. I'm willing to disagree on this point. > - That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed are unemployed because of H1B workers, and that if those workers weren't there, the unemployed college grads would be employed. I made no such statement. > - That any worker can be anywhere at any time. If a company is in North Dakota and needs a programmer, it doesn't matter that there are 1000 unemployed American programmers in New York. This comment makes no sense when we are talking about foreign workers who have to cross continents and oceans to get to North Dakota > - That when someone graduates, they're able to perform their profession up to the standard required. That they are "good". This should be laughable if you've ever been to any college short of the top 30. 1.7 million graduates don't mean 1.7 million desirable employees. I think you are just repeating your first point here. I'd be willing to bet 90% of H1Bs don't hold degrees from the top 30, or whatever arbitrary cutoff you have. I'm not interested in pedigree. 1.7 million graduates should certainly be 1.7 million desirable employees (or at least 650k), and if it isn't, then it sounds like we found the root cause. > Unemployment sure is a huge problem, but I think you might be barking up the wrong tree here if you're looking for a cause. Getting rid of the H-1B is not going to help much, from what I can tell. I never once suggested that H1B is the cause of unemployment.
  - Crito 13y ago
    How many of those 1.7 Million unemployed US college grads refused to consider market demand when they were choosing their major, because they were mistakenly lead to believe that either "Any college degree is good enough for any job, because it is still the 1950s." or "I shouldn't have to consider employment when picking my major because I should be able to study whatever I find intellectually gratifying and society will then owe me a good job in fields that I did not study."? Perhaps my university was unusually good (I do not believe that) but all of the people in my graduating CS class that I still have contact with are happily employed. I know this because about once a year I ping them asking if they want recommendations at my company... I'm trying to get those sweet referral bonuses... > "The foreign workers aren't actually that high skilled and their education is questionable." I work alongside many H1B people. They are all highly competent.
    - djb_hackernews 13y ago
      A point I made above, but I don't really think a 4 year degree decides your future, it just shows you are trainable and can commit to something. I've worked with plenty of water walker software developers that didn't have a CS degree to know this is true. > I work alongside many H1B people. They are all highly competent. I work along side a lot of H1B people. They are all kind, smart, and competent. But they are people, there is nothing special about them, which was the whole point of the H1B program.
      - insuffi 13y ago
        If there's nothing special about them, why are companies hiring them? The usual "cheap workarz" angle is irrelevant. They all get market rates. Not to mention businesses having to sponsor relocation and the actual visas. Surely you're not suggesting a business would bear H1B related overhead for no reason, unless they would be forced to do so.
        djb_hackernews 13y ago
        I don't fault for employers for using the system they are given to cut costs, but that's all it is. I'd be fine if it were an immigration visa, but these worker visa programs have no oversight and there is no conversation at the decision making level representing the american worker. the cheap labor angle isn't irrelevant just because you say so. It's been documented that a) there are plenty of STEM graduates b) H1B workers are under paid[0] [0] https://www.google.com/#q=h1b+workers+underpaid https://www.google.com/#q=h1b+workers+underpaid
enscr 13y ago
>education is questionable Don't you think that generalization is stretching it. >local economies that they didn't "pay into" What would you like to say about millions accumulated as social security & medicare by H1B workers that they can't redeem. If one returns to their home country before certain conditions are met, all that money goes to the US.
insuffi 13y ago
Since we're talking in absolute terms, you're basically saying all education acquired outside of the US is questionable. If you look at the world ranking of universities top 100, you'll see a number of foreign universities on par with Ivies.
- Dewie 13y ago
  Even just considering the top 100 is misleading, unless you only want to talk about Americans and foreign workers that are "top 100 material".
chrisBob 13y ago
If you want to complain about foreigners displacing americans I think you would have a better argument with graduate school. At BU more than half of the engineering PhD students are foreign, and that isn't just displacing Americans, it is also 100% tax payer funded.
- yardie 13y ago
  Most graduate programs aren't displacing US citizens with foreign students. They literally cannot find a US citizen willing to take the job. I know, they were trying to recruit me and after seeing the bullshit my graduate friends had to deal with I got the hell outta there. The science and engineering graduates have no problem finding work. It's no secret why the engineering school is full of foreign PhD students. Local graduates weren't interested. Sociology and Political Science were a different matter. You can't get hired in Sociology without at least a MS. PoliSci was the entry point for law school.
  - coryrc 13y ago
    They'd have no problem getting US students if they paid more.
syntern 13y ago
I have two MSc from a great non-US university, working with H1B for a top IT corp in SV. My wife has the same two MSc, staying home with H4. I have seen similar patterns among other H1B/H4 immigrants (e.g. same university, same education, yet only one of them is allowed to work). I think the US should do what Singapore has done a long time ago: open up its job market for high-skilled professionals, as it will bring in talent, know-how and experience. Otherwise, as soon as the H1B term expires, all of this talent will go back to their countries, improving their economies. (Not that there is anything wrong with it, but from the US point of view, it is better to have the talent in the US than at any other place.)
supercanuck 13y ago
This has been my experience in my industry outside of Silicon Valley.

ulfw 13y ago

Yea. Because all locals are so highly educated. Have you seen CS departments at major school in the US? Look at the demographics and then think again.

djb_hackernews 13y ago
I'm honestly not sure what point you are trying to make. That US CS programs aren't as rigorous as foreign programs? That US CS programs aren't also filled with foreign students, further displacing and out pricing citizens? My point is, we have 1.7 Million college educated grads currently unemployed[0]. We have an estimated 650,000 H1B workers[1]. I'd say we have plenty of educated, hard working, and able citizens to fill these positions. [0]http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm [1]https://cis.org/estimating-h1b-population-2-11 https://cis.org/estimating-h1b-population-2-11
- _of 13y ago
  Look at any academic institution in the US in the life sciences. If you would take away the Europeans and Asians, what would be left?
  - a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
    The field would become more attractive to Americans and they would fill the empty places.
    - insuffi 13y ago
      How would that make the field more attractive? If the aforementioned Europeans and Asians left, and Americans moved in afterwards, aren't you essentially implying Americans cannot keep up with them?
      - a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
        No, I'm implying that a lot of capable Americans prefer not to work in fields flooded with foreigners. The status attached to working in the field would improve and attract more native candidates.
        insuffi 13y ago
        You do realize you're implying that Americans are xenophobic?
        a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
        Held to the proper degree xenophobia is a normal, healthy instinct in all cultures.
        insuffi 13y ago
        I don't see how not joining a field just because it consists of certain amount of foreigners is a healthy, normal instinct.
        coryrc 13y ago
        It is because of secondary effects -- larger supply of foreign workers drives down the wages, now and in the future. Except the whole "software eating the world" thing that might be the exception that proves the rule.
        chetanahuja 13y ago
        "Held to the proper degree xenophobia is a normal, healthy instinct in all cultures" That may be, but I'm not sure you know what the words "normal" "healthy" or "proper" mean.
- makmanalp 13y ago
  There are many assumptions here that you should question. - That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed work in the same field as the H-1B workers. H-1B workers tend to commonly be in engineering / science / medecine / etc. Mostly Bachelors in Science degrees. The most common majors in the US are mostly BA degrees. You can't just plop those people into what they're not trained in. - That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed are unemployed because of H1B workers, and that if those workers weren't there, the unemployed college grads would be employed. - That any worker can be anywhere at any time. If a company is in North Dakota and needs a programmer, it doesn't matter that there are 1000 unemployed American programmers in New York. - That when someone graduates, they're able to perform their profession up to the standard required. That they are "good". This should be laughable if you've ever been to any college short of the top 30. 1.7 million graduates don't mean 1.7 million desirable employees. Unemployment sure is a huge problem, but I think you might be barking up the wrong tree here if you're looking for a cause. Getting rid of the H-1B is not going to help much, from what I can tell.
  - djb_hackernews 13y ago
    > - That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed work in the same field as the H-1B workers. H-1B workers tend to commonly be in engineering / science / medecine / etc. Mostly Bachelors in Science degrees. The most common majors in the US are mostly BA degrees. You can't just plop those people into what they're not trained in. I don't believe that a Bachelors degree necessarily limits your career options. Holding a four year degree basically means you are trainable, committed, and follow the rules. The ideal employee. I'm willing to disagree on this point. > - That the 1.7 million college grads who are unemployed are unemployed because of H1B workers, and that if those workers weren't there, the unemployed college grads would be employed. I made no such statement. > - That any worker can be anywhere at any time. If a company is in North Dakota and needs a programmer, it doesn't matter that there are 1000 unemployed American programmers in New York. This comment makes no sense when we are talking about foreign workers who have to cross continents and oceans to get to North Dakota > - That when someone graduates, they're able to perform their profession up to the standard required. That they are "good". This should be laughable if you've ever been to any college short of the top 30. 1.7 million graduates don't mean 1.7 million desirable employees. I think you are just repeating your first point here. I'd be willing to bet 90% of H1Bs don't hold degrees from the top 30, or whatever arbitrary cutoff you have. I'm not interested in pedigree. 1.7 million graduates should certainly be 1.7 million desirable employees (or at least 650k), and if it isn't, then it sounds like we found the root cause. > Unemployment sure is a huge problem, but I think you might be barking up the wrong tree here if you're looking for a cause. Getting rid of the H-1B is not going to help much, from what I can tell. I never once suggested that H1B is the cause of unemployment.
- Crito 13y ago
  How many of those 1.7 Million unemployed US college grads refused to consider market demand when they were choosing their major, because they were mistakenly lead to believe that either "Any college degree is good enough for any job, because it is still the 1950s." or "I shouldn't have to consider employment when picking my major because I should be able to study whatever I find intellectually gratifying and society will then owe me a good job in fields that I did not study."? Perhaps my university was unusually good (I do not believe that) but all of the people in my graduating CS class that I still have contact with are happily employed. I know this because about once a year I ping them asking if they want recommendations at my company... I'm trying to get those sweet referral bonuses... > "The foreign workers aren't actually that high skilled and their education is questionable." I work alongside many H1B people. They are all highly competent.
  - djb_hackernews 13y ago
    A point I made above, but I don't really think a 4 year degree decides your future, it just shows you are trainable and can commit to something. I've worked with plenty of water walker software developers that didn't have a CS degree to know this is true. > I work alongside many H1B people. They are all highly competent. I work along side a lot of H1B people. They are all kind, smart, and competent. But they are people, there is nothing special about them, which was the whole point of the H1B program.
    - insuffi 13y ago
      If there's nothing special about them, why are companies hiring them? The usual "cheap workarz" angle is irrelevant. They all get market rates. Not to mention businesses having to sponsor relocation and the actual visas. Surely you're not suggesting a business would bear H1B related overhead for no reason, unless they would be forced to do so.
      - djb_hackernews 13y ago
        I don't fault for employers for using the system they are given to cut costs, but that's all it is. I'd be fine if it were an immigration visa, but these worker visa programs have no oversight and there is no conversation at the decision making level representing the american worker. the cheap labor angle isn't irrelevant just because you say so. It's been documented that a) there are plenty of STEM graduates b) H1B workers are under paid[0] [0] https://www.google.com/#q=h1b+workers+underpaid https://www.google.com/#q=h1b+workers+underpaid

enscr 13y ago

>education is questionable Don't you think that generalization is stretching it. >local economies that they didn't "pay into" What would you like to say about millions accumulated as social security & medicare by H1B workers that they can't redeem. If one returns to their home country before certain conditions are met, all that money goes to the US.

insuffi 13y ago

Since we're talking in absolute terms, you're basically saying all education acquired outside of the US is questionable. If you look at the world ranking of universities top 100, you'll see a number of foreign universities on par with Ivies.

Dewie 13y ago
Even just considering the top 100 is misleading, unless you only want to talk about Americans and foreign workers that are "top 100 material".

chrisBob 13y ago

If you want to complain about foreigners displacing americans I think you would have a better argument with graduate school. At BU more than half of the engineering PhD students are foreign, and that isn't just displacing Americans, it is also 100% tax payer funded.

yardie 13y ago
Most graduate programs aren't displacing US citizens with foreign students. They literally cannot find a US citizen willing to take the job. I know, they were trying to recruit me and after seeing the bullshit my graduate friends had to deal with I got the hell outta there. The science and engineering graduates have no problem finding work. It's no secret why the engineering school is full of foreign PhD students. Local graduates weren't interested. Sociology and Political Science were a different matter. You can't get hired in Sociology without at least a MS. PoliSci was the entry point for law school.
- coryrc 13y ago
  They'd have no problem getting US students if they paid more.

syntern 13y ago

I have two MSc from a great non-US university, working with H1B for a top IT corp in SV. My wife has the same two MSc, staying home with H4. I have seen similar patterns among other H1B/H4 immigrants (e.g. same university, same education, yet only one of them is allowed to work). I think the US should do what Singapore has done a long time ago: open up its job market for high-skilled professionals, as it will bring in talent, know-how and experience. Otherwise, as soon as the H1B term expires, all of this talent will go back to their countries, improving their economies. (Not that there is anything wrong with it, but from the US point of view, it is better to have the talent in the US than at any other place.)

supercanuck 13y ago

This has been my experience in my industry outside of Silicon Valley.