4 ms·

I'd be curious as to your reasoning behind the "endless cartoons reinforcing these values and ideas down at a child's level (G.I. Joe, Transformers, Gobots, etc

by talmand 13y ago

I'd be curious as to your reasoning behind the "endless cartoons reinforcing these values and ideas down at a child's level (G.I. Joe, Transformers, Gobots, etc.)" statement. What values and ideas were they reinforcing that made them examples of the weirdness of the 80s? I can get the USA! from GIJoe, but the others that I recall as a kid seem to just fit into the typical good vs evil theme that is older than the written word. This isn't just childhood memories either as many of my favorites from childhood are on Netflix and have been recently revisited. Like I said, just curious. I agree about the vibrancy though. My memories of childhood seemed much interesting in some terms such as toys, Saturday morning and after school afternoon cartoons then what's available for my kids today. They are out there, but it seems you have to work to find good ones when I had multiple options to choose from.

JulianMorrison 13y ago
Crudely: 1. There are good and evil, only. The role of good is to fight evil, using violence. 2. The origin of evil is either irredeemable people or irredeemable ideologies. They cannot be reasoned with and do not have internal logic. The only way to end evil is by force. 3. Wishy washy good guys negotiate, but it never works. Manly good guys shoot first. That works. 4. If you are not succeeding with violence, use bigger, shinier violence. 5. Violence solves the problem, and once it's solved, it's over, and everything goes back to happy.
- talmand 13y ago
  I get all that, but to me it fits in line with my good vs evil being older than the written word thought. Most of what you wrote I can find in a history book. bane's reply is more of what I was curious about.
  - JulianMorrison 13y ago
    I dispute that this is really all that ancient a view. Christianity, for example, regards violence as only useful backed by supernatural aid, and doesn't see it as the only way to fight, only assigns irredeemable evil to supernatural entities, nominally prefers peace, and does not expect human agency (exploding or otherwise) to be sufficient alone. The 80s could well be viewed as a repudiation of christian ideas of evil.
    - talmand 13y ago
      Well, I don't have sources on hand but I'm fairly certain that what you describe is not necessarily a Christian invention. Many of the stories I recall reading that pre-date Christianity have similar themes.
- csense 13y ago
  Entertainment doesn't have to reflect real life. The unrealistic settings are due to the narrative demands of action-oriented storytelling. If you're watching the Ninja Turtles or Superman or whatever, you want to see the good guys kicking the bad guy's butts. If a show is about engaging the bad guy in a big moral debate and realizing there are no good guys or bad guys, it would just be lame -- not as much entertainment value. That being said, I love shows that have moral ambiguity. Four that immediately come to mind are Death Note, Game of Thrones, Puella Magi, and Gunslinger Girl. But that's not everyone's cup of tea. And even though that's my taste, I don't want all my entertainment to be in shades of gray -- I watch Fairy Tail, too.
bane 13y ago
Well, G.I. Joe was an older propaganda tool from the 60s, but it was substantially rebooted in the 80s as a high tech international global police force of sorts. I think this re-envisioning of the toy line fell in line with the kind of moralistic, American technology will give us the edge because we're smarter and better people than the also sophisticated but not as quite godless "bad guy" -- who happened to be a kind of blend of authoritarianism, terrorism and other enemies of the free and democratic peoples of the world (protected by the very American G.I. Joes). Transformers are an interesting robot spin on the same theme. Let's be honest, the Autobots were stationed out of America and were largely defending America from the Decepticons. They were super high tech robots and fit nicely into the Star Wars (defense) theme of the Reagan administration. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApTnYwh5KvE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApTnYwh5KvE - Reagan Star Wars speech (I actually remember some of the graphics from this speech) I agree with the good vs evil spin on those shows. But I think that the actors who filled the good and evil roles were largely filled with American and Soviet/Nazi/Terrorist idealized stereotypes. I'd add that in the cartoons the motivation of the evil archetype was always nonsensical and unclear. The Decepticons for example were always after energy resources and converting them to energon cubes. Yet the Autobots never seemed to have energy procurement problems. I think this was fed by the larger propaganda of the communists as being nonsensical, vague "bad guys" who were acting as constant aggressors. MASK, Inspector Gadget, He Man, Danger Mouse, to some point Thundercats, Gobots, etc. all kind of fit this mold. Cartoons from the 70s and 90s largely don't really reflect this kind of good organization vs. nonsensical evil organization zeitgeist of the time.
- talmand 13y ago
  Well, like I said, I get the GIJoe bit. And I agree for the most part, I just don't necessarily agree with the government propaganda part. Using nationalism and patriotism as a means to sell toys? Sure. I can't agree with the Transformers as much. I don't recall anything specifically stating they were in America other than suggestions in the dialogue. With redubbing the show could have been placed just about anywhere only limited because of the appearance of the main human characters. I believe there was a British version as well. I could agree that maybe the Reagan administration co-opted Transformers for their own use (much like they did with the Star Wars name but I doubt Lucas was a government propagandist) but you seem to be suggesting that the Transformers exists for the benefit of Reagan's Star Wars program. That's the bit I'm curious about because I just don't see that. It seems too conspiracy theory to me. My reasoning is that Transformers was a part Japanese effort and originally based off existing Japanese toys. It was essentially a Japanese company entering the US market. To say they were propaganda for the benefit of the US government is a stretch to me. I agree with the stereotypes, but I would say they were more of the typical good vs evil stereotypes. Just because they matched the good vs evil actors of the day doesn't necessarily mean they were created with that in mind. That seems some form of bias to me. The reason the Autobots didn't have energy issues like the Decepticons was because they weren't attempting to conquer. They only required what was needed to survive. The Decepticons were gathering resources to destroy the Autobots on the planet, conquer said planet, and then return to Cybertron to finish the war. Works for me. I think it was the major plot point in several episodes. I disagree with your final statement. There are many modern examples of more-or-less the same themes of good vs evil with similar stereotypes, archetypes, and plots. It's just a lack of interest or failure in connecting them to modern events. I just don't buy the propaganda for government benefit in the Saturday morning cartoons from my childhood. Now, propaganda for me to want the toys they were selling? Sure enough, and it works.
protonfish 13y ago
For some reason 80s cartoons often had a "moral lesson" tacked on to the end. Whether it was due to FCC regulations or just pandering to parents, I don't know. Some of the lessons were common sense, and some were just bizarre. Most were clearly phoned in. ("Key kids, don't do bad things, mm'K?") The comments on here about the 80s aren't saying they were good or bad, just "weird." Having to watch B grade propaganda after every cartoon definitely qualifies.
- talmand 13y ago
  That was the beginning of government interference. Over time it started to be mandated that the broadcast networks had to have x percentage of "educational" value in their lineup of children's programs. The results was the gradual removal of children's programming to the point that my cherished Saturday morning and after school cartoons disappeared.

by talmand 13y ago

JulianMorrison 13y ago

Crudely: 1. There are good and evil, only. The role of good is to fight evil, using violence. 2. The origin of evil is either irredeemable people or irredeemable ideologies. They cannot be reasoned with and do not have internal logic. The only way to end evil is by force. 3. Wishy washy good guys negotiate, but it never works. Manly good guys shoot first. That works. 4. If you are not succeeding with violence, use bigger, shinier violence. 5. Violence solves the problem, and once it's solved, it's over, and everything goes back to happy.

talmand 13y ago
I get all that, but to me it fits in line with my good vs evil being older than the written word thought. Most of what you wrote I can find in a history book. bane's reply is more of what I was curious about.
- JulianMorrison 13y ago
  I dispute that this is really all that ancient a view. Christianity, for example, regards violence as only useful backed by supernatural aid, and doesn't see it as the only way to fight, only assigns irredeemable evil to supernatural entities, nominally prefers peace, and does not expect human agency (exploding or otherwise) to be sufficient alone. The 80s could well be viewed as a repudiation of christian ideas of evil.
  - talmand 13y ago
    Well, I don't have sources on hand but I'm fairly certain that what you describe is not necessarily a Christian invention. Many of the stories I recall reading that pre-date Christianity have similar themes.
csense 13y ago
Entertainment doesn't have to reflect real life. The unrealistic settings are due to the narrative demands of action-oriented storytelling. If you're watching the Ninja Turtles or Superman or whatever, you want to see the good guys kicking the bad guy's butts. If a show is about engaging the bad guy in a big moral debate and realizing there are no good guys or bad guys, it would just be lame -- not as much entertainment value. That being said, I love shows that have moral ambiguity. Four that immediately come to mind are Death Note, Game of Thrones, Puella Magi, and Gunslinger Girl. But that's not everyone's cup of tea. And even though that's my taste, I don't want all my entertainment to be in shades of gray -- I watch Fairy Tail, too.

bane 13y ago

Well, G.I. Joe was an older propaganda tool from the 60s, but it was substantially rebooted in the 80s as a high tech international global police force of sorts. I think this re-envisioning of the toy line fell in line with the kind of moralistic, American technology will give us the edge because we're smarter and better people than the also sophisticated but not as quite godless "bad guy" -- who happened to be a kind of blend of authoritarianism, terrorism and other enemies of the free and democratic peoples of the world (protected by the very American G.I. Joes). Transformers are an interesting robot spin on the same theme. Let's be honest, the Autobots were stationed out of America and were largely defending America from the Decepticons. They were super high tech robots and fit nicely into the Star Wars (defense) theme of the Reagan administration. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApTnYwh5KvE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApTnYwh5KvE - Reagan Star Wars speech (I actually remember some of the graphics from this speech) I agree with the good vs evil spin on those shows. But I think that the actors who filled the good and evil roles were largely filled with American and Soviet/Nazi/Terrorist idealized stereotypes. I'd add that in the cartoons the motivation of the evil archetype was always nonsensical and unclear. The Decepticons for example were always after energy resources and converting them to energon cubes. Yet the Autobots never seemed to have energy procurement problems. I think this was fed by the larger propaganda of the communists as being nonsensical, vague "bad guys" who were acting as constant aggressors. MASK, Inspector Gadget, He Man, Danger Mouse, to some point Thundercats, Gobots, etc. all kind of fit this mold. Cartoons from the 70s and 90s largely don't really reflect this kind of good organization vs. nonsensical evil organization zeitgeist of the time.

talmand 13y ago
Well, like I said, I get the GIJoe bit. And I agree for the most part, I just don't necessarily agree with the government propaganda part. Using nationalism and patriotism as a means to sell toys? Sure. I can't agree with the Transformers as much. I don't recall anything specifically stating they were in America other than suggestions in the dialogue. With redubbing the show could have been placed just about anywhere only limited because of the appearance of the main human characters. I believe there was a British version as well. I could agree that maybe the Reagan administration co-opted Transformers for their own use (much like they did with the Star Wars name but I doubt Lucas was a government propagandist) but you seem to be suggesting that the Transformers exists for the benefit of Reagan's Star Wars program. That's the bit I'm curious about because I just don't see that. It seems too conspiracy theory to me. My reasoning is that Transformers was a part Japanese effort and originally based off existing Japanese toys. It was essentially a Japanese company entering the US market. To say they were propaganda for the benefit of the US government is a stretch to me. I agree with the stereotypes, but I would say they were more of the typical good vs evil stereotypes. Just because they matched the good vs evil actors of the day doesn't necessarily mean they were created with that in mind. That seems some form of bias to me. The reason the Autobots didn't have energy issues like the Decepticons was because they weren't attempting to conquer. They only required what was needed to survive. The Decepticons were gathering resources to destroy the Autobots on the planet, conquer said planet, and then return to Cybertron to finish the war. Works for me. I think it was the major plot point in several episodes. I disagree with your final statement. There are many modern examples of more-or-less the same themes of good vs evil with similar stereotypes, archetypes, and plots. It's just a lack of interest or failure in connecting them to modern events. I just don't buy the propaganda for government benefit in the Saturday morning cartoons from my childhood. Now, propaganda for me to want the toys they were selling? Sure enough, and it works.

protonfish 13y ago

For some reason 80s cartoons often had a "moral lesson" tacked on to the end. Whether it was due to FCC regulations or just pandering to parents, I don't know. Some of the lessons were common sense, and some were just bizarre. Most were clearly phoned in. ("Key kids, don't do bad things, mm'K?") The comments on here about the 80s aren't saying they were good or bad, just "weird." Having to watch B grade propaganda after every cartoon definitely qualifies.

talmand 13y ago
That was the beginning of government interference. Over time it started to be mandated that the broadcast networks had to have x percentage of "educational" value in their lineup of children's programs. The results was the gradual removal of children's programming to the point that my cherished Saturday morning and after school cartoons disappeared.