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Spouses of H-1B Visa Holders May Soon Be Allowed to Work in the U.S.

189 points by dashausbass 13y ago

gdilla 13y ago
Great! I had so many colleagues in this situation - invariably it made starting a family more attractive as one spouse was basically stay-at-home anyway. I understand that Americans want jobs for Americans, but bringing in immigrants and letting them work means you get taxpayers whose education was subsidized by a foreign government. They basically are net contributors to the economy upon their first paycheck. The higher skilled they are, the more dramatic this effect. It seems like a huge net win to the US economy. I'm sure there's a good counterargument to this, but I'm biased being an immigrant myself.
- akgerber 13y ago
  As an American citizen, at least half of my employers have had at least one immigrant founder— immigration seems like a big contributor to the US' excellence in high tech. But H-1B visas aren't great for me, since they give so much more leverage to the employer and not the employee— just giving green cards or work visas to skilled immigrants would be much better.
  - sigkill 13y ago
    Aren't H1B work visa? But I think your idea of the green card is pretty good to return the balance of employer/employee leverage. I wonder what abuses that might have though.
    - eshvk 13y ago
      I think what the parent implies by "work visa" is a visa that is not tied to the employer. The H1B as it stands now is just a proxy for indentured labor.
      - goshx 13y ago
        right, that requirement to be tied to the employer is also what prevents the H1B to run its own company (although H1B can start a business, (s)he is not allowed to run it.)
      - kosievdmerwe 13y ago
        > indentured labour. Could you explain, I'm not sure how this is the case?
        eshvk 13y ago
        Sure. The way the H1B works is that it is tied to your employer. The employer knows this. You know it. This creates leverage on the part of the employer. How? Two ways: One, you get fired, you are out of status immediately, you have to leave the country ASAP or find a job immediately. So, you make sure you don't get fired. Two, an H1B employee is supposed to be paid the prevailing job market rate. For CA, San Francisco County, the max is around 100K. It is a pretty sum. BUT. It is also less than market rate as of six months ago (when I was job hunting). Now, most big companies don't need to exploit you. But a wily manager can easily fuck with you with enough awareness of the issue. Personally, I have noticed this phenomenon at smaller companies where a H1B candidate is potentially more attractive. I got a green card very recently, however, I am obviously not an American and am relatively young enough that I can be suspected of not having a Green Card. I have had a few situations where hiring managers were rather disappointed that I didn't need their help to acquire an H1B or for them to file for my green card.
  - kosievdmerwe 13y ago
    How does an H-1B give leverage to the employer? You can change jobs, you just have to get your new employer to notify the state that they are now your employer.
- avar 13y ago
  The Netherlands even gives you a tax discount for 10 years if you're a highly skilled migrant, the criteria for being able to apply for it basically comes down to "is this person likely to need welfare? No? They get lower taxes then": http://www.expatica.com/nl/finance_business/tax/The-Dutch-30-percent-ruling_explained_11398.html http://www.expatica.com/nl/finance_business/tax/The-Dutch-30... It makes sense for states to enact programs like these for the reasons you pointed out. If you can get skilled migrants you get net contributors from day one.
  - judk 13y ago
    It seems counterproductive to the point of welfare to have the people who need welfare pay for it. It isn't an insurance policy.
    - avar 13y ago
      No that's not what this policy does. For the sake of argument (and simplicity) let's say that schooling and other childhood / early adult expenses for the average citizen cost the state $100,000, and let's say that in return the state is likely to gain $200,000 in tax money back from citizens over their lifetime once they become productive members of society. It's pretty obvious that if you give adult immigrants who can immediately become contributing members of the economy a 1/3 tax discount that the state loses nothing, and only stands to gain from the deal, since they never had to pay those $100,000 to send them to school as children, that cost was offloaded to some other nation-state. The tax contribution of those immigrants to social programs like welfare is also going to be just the same as the contributions of native citizens, despite the lower tax rate, because the state isn't also using that tax money to pay for those $100,000 it never spent. If anything the flaw in the Dutch policy is that the tax discount isn't large enough, should last for more than 10 years (i.e. indefinitely, and should be larger if you promise to get out of the country before retirement), and that they should offer it to more immigrants, not just the highly skilled.
    - fennecfoxen 13y ago
      The welfare state has a limitation: it needs to be paid for. It also has a consequence: people who seek welfare may attempt to move to the welfare state in order to obtain it. This may imperil the ability of the state to pay for the welfare - or, at least, the willingness of the taxpayers to fund that welfare. So this impacts immigration policy. Insofar as the welfare state IS like an insurance policy, this is like the health insurance company denying coverage for a pre-existing condition.
- djb_hackernews 13y ago
  I'll provide a counter argument. The foreign workers aren't actually that high skilled and their education is questionable. So upon their first paycheck they are displacing local workers who could also do the job, putting extra pressure on local economies that they didn't "pay into", and giving more power to employers based on the restrictive nature of these foreign worker visas.
  - ulfw 13y ago
    Yea. Because all locals are so highly educated. Have you seen CS departments at major school in the US? Look at the demographics and then think again.
    - djb_hackernews 13y ago
      I'm honestly not sure what point you are trying to make. That US CS programs aren't as rigorous as foreign programs? That US CS programs aren't also filled with foreign students, further displacing and out pricing citizens? My point is, we have 1.7 Million college educated grads currently unemployed[0]. We have an estimated 650,000 H1B workers[1]. I'd say we have plenty of educated, hard working, and able citizens to fill these positions. [0]http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm [1]https://cis.org/estimating-h1b-population-2-11 https://cis.org/estimating-h1b-population-2-11
      - _of 13y ago
        Look at any academic institution in the US in the life sciences. If you would take away the Europeans and Asians, what would be left?
        a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
        The field would become more attractive to Americans and they would fill the empty places.
        13y ago
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levosmetalo 13y ago
It's a good news. It's one of the main reasons not to even consider moving to USA. Now, let's just fix ridiculously high taxes compared to Europe, sane healthcare system, work conditions and education system, and you might be up to something.
- free652 13y ago
  >let's just fix ridiculously high taxes compared to Europe, Eh? Europe has higher taxes. http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/50eef524ecad04766900000c-960/tax%20rates%20ranking%20100k.jpg http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/50eef524ecad0476690...
  - deleted 13y ago
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  - levosmetalo 13y ago
    Maybe higher nominal rates, but USA has much higher tax rates for what you get out of it. In many parts of Europe tax include social contributions, so you don't pay anything additionaly for haelthcare and retirement. You have free or almost free education up to the university level, subsidized child care, actual unemployment benefits, good transport infrastructure and many such things that you need to pay yourself in the USA. If you want to compare real effective tax rates, just add all these additional expenses to your tax amount and compare it to Europe. Than again, the chart doesn't include US state tax, so you are really taking into account only a part of US tax rate.
    - opendais 13y ago
      So lets raise taxes to European rates, reduce military spending, and ta da, you can get the same in the US. :P
    - free652 13y ago
      USA has SOCIAL contributions - FICA, SSI, Medicare. That's retirement, care for disabled and elderly. Our schools ARE free. It's easy to add up my healthcare insurance which isn't much - $250 per month - less than 2% of my income. The chart INCLUDES NYS tax. Source of that charts: http://www.businessinsider.com/america-taxes-charts-2013-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/america-taxes-charts-2013-1
goshx 13y ago
I hope it is true this time. I sent a question a few days ago: Ask HN: How many H1B holders here taking the H4 "punishment"? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7547839 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7547839 The current H4 only offers a disruption to the family. Nothing else.
shenoybr 13y ago
The proposal does not give a blanket approval for spouses of H1-B workers to work. It only allows spouses, for those H1-B holders who have maxed out the original 6 years on their visa and are now awaiting their turn in line for Green Cards (which for India and China is ridiculously long). But it still is progress. I'd hope they remove country based discrimination in EB visas. And better yet pass immigration reform sooner rather than later. Edit: Here is the link to the original proposal: http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=20121. http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=20121....
- eshvk 13y ago
  > I'd hope they remove country based discrimination in EB visas. And better yet pass immigration reform sooner rather than later. What country based discrimination? The quotas are to prevent two countries from flooding the immigration markets and making sure diversity exists.
  - bankim 13y ago
    India and China are vast countries, the diversity should also take into account population/area of the country on which limits are enforced.
    - judk 13y ago
      In which we learn that there is not such thing as non-bias. Whether de facto or de jure, there are always biases. Either a person chooses them, or nature chooses them. There is no universally "fair" distribution over a scarce commodity.
    - eshvk 13y ago
      > India and China are vast countries, the diversity should also take into account population/area of the country on which limits are enforced. It is not clear to me how having a diverse country that is not dominated by immigrants from one or two ethnicities arrives from letting this happen. Or how it is fair to the guy from random tiny country X when he has to compete against two largest sources of immigrants to this country.
Deusdies 13y ago
Uh, don't remind me of H-1B. I am currently on F1 working as a software developer for a Fortune 500 company (with work permit / OPT), and my consulting agency said they'll apply for a H-1B visa for me, so I was very happy. Turns out, they actually tried to extend my work permit (which they couldn't in my case since I didn't actually graduate with CSci degree) and now I have my work permit expiring in July, and not sure if I'll be able to stay in the country because I'm not sure if H-1B visa will arrive in time.
- craniumrat2 13y ago
  Hi, If they did file a H1B for you this year, then you should be able to extend your OPT period till October. It's something called a 'cap gap' fix that was introduced around a couple of years ago. http://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations-and-fashion-models/extension-post-completion-optional-practical-training-opt-and-f-1-status-eligible-students-under-h-1b-cap-gap-regulations http://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers...
  - Deusdies 13y ago
    Thanks a ton for this! I will forward this to my consulting agency.
judk 13y ago
This, and a thousand analogous reasons, is why gay marriage matters.
sharmajai 13y ago
Link to the whitehouse factsheet announcing this: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/04/07/fact-sheet-strengthening-entrepreneurship-home-and-abroad http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/04/07/fact-s... Relevant excerpt from the section "Attracting the World’s Best and Brightest": These proposed regulations include rules authorizing employment for spouses of certain high-skill workers on H-1B visas, as well as enhancing opportunities for outstanding professors and researchers. As to what certain means remains to be seen.
- shenoybr 13y ago
  'certain' in this context means: those H1B holders who have completed 6 years of the original visa term. They are compelled to either wait and languish in line, or go back home where their spouse can work. Edit: Not sure why I got downvoted. I was just paraphrasing the reasons given in the proposal. Its not an opinion. Don't shoot the messenger. See http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201310&RIN=1615-AB92# http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=20131...
  - sharmajai 13y ago
    Where do you see that? If that is the case then it helps only those who applied for permanent residency late in their 6 year H1-B term hence they don't have EAD for their spouse through green card application but can extend their H1-B status indefinitely.
    - shenoybr 13y ago
      Here is the link to the original proposal: http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201210&RIN=1615-AB92 http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=20121...
  - deleted 13y ago
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supercanuck 13y ago
I like Massachusetts trade off, if you are going to allow an influx of H1-B's and immigrants, do away with the non-compete. All it does is allow skim some cream of the top and control labor through myriad of shell companies and outsourcers. The real value if the initial hook up of the labor to the organization. There is no reason to behold a "contractor" to a company.
yankoff 13y ago
they say "for Indian programmers" like there are no other h1b programmers in the US :)
- goshx 13y ago
  I thought the same thing at first, but then I realized the reason is because this was posted to the section "India Realtime" of the WSJ :)
notnoop 13y ago
I maybe pessimistic, but I haven't seen any progress in H-4 employment proposals recently and the article doesn't point to any particular proposal. The Senate bill for Immigration reform passed the Senate last June, but the House isn't taking a vote on it. The house in turn had similar proposals last year in committee, but House leadership has no plans of putting them to a general vote at least till November elections.
makmanalp 13y ago
On one side I'm extremely happy that this might come to pass (might is a keyword in immigration legislation) because I personally know people who have been affected by this and can't work even though they're there. It's extremely frustrating for them to say the least, and extremely silly that people who want to be productive members of society can't. On the other hand, I'm not sure how fair it is to all the people who applied for an H-1B last year and this year who were forced to participate in the H-1B lottery and couldn't get into the quota of 85000. Now one winning lottery spot could be worth two workers instead of one. Who's to say that the spouse, who didn't even have to go through the trouble of finding an employer, convincing them to sponsor, applying, waiting for the lottery results, etc is more deserving of a work permit than those who did but just weren't lucky enough to win the quota lottery? I'm ashamed that I'm thinking of something so petty when I should be happy for those people, but having lost the lottery once, I can't help but feel a small tinge of jealousy and resentment. I would be happier if none of this was an issue in the first place.
- deleted 13y ago
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- FollowSteph3 13y ago
  Deserving or not the spouse is still there. So why block them from working if they're already there. It's not as fair as giving someone else an h1b but at the same you can't view it as trading one for the other. Instead you're just expanding what an h1b means. Again the person is already there so why not let them be productive...
  - makmanalp 13y ago
    Yeah, after thinking again, I can't help but agree.
- DrJokepu 13y ago
  Words like "deserve" or "fair" are simply not part of the vocabulary when it comes to immigration. For example, while I am not a US citizen, my wife is which means that once I inevitably give in and agree to move to the United States with her (she's continuously pestering me with it) I will just get a green card after filing some paperwork. And you can rest assured that there are plenty of people more "deserving" of a green card than me.
schintan 13y ago
Would not the companies be wary of hiring people on H4 considering their authorization to work depends on their spouses maintaining their H1 status ? There is an inherent risk that the H-1B holding spouse might lose their job.
- jdcryans 13y ago
  Maybe, but I'm not sure if it matters. Like the article says, spouses of L-1s are already doing it, same for the spouses of Australian E-3 holders. From wikipedia: "spouses of E-3 visa holders may work in the United States without restrictions". So they can be baristas if they want to :)
gopalv 13y ago
Speaking as someone who moved to America on H1B with my wife - this is promising. In the back of my head, I'm preparing to go back next year if my awesome wife can't find anything to do - missed this year's H1 cap already. It's frustrating to watch her get depressed sitting at home and feeling like she's missing out. It's making me angry to come home every day to find her turning her energy inwards into frustration. She's more talented than me, just not in tech - she's into ads. The ad industry does not have the patience of the IT industry when it comes to keeping a req open for 6 months while the H1 processes. Australia & Canada are attractive options in my radar. At least, I'm sure I can work on hadoop from anywhere and get paid to ship open source code.
- untitledwiz 13y ago
  UK and Germany would also be good options. I know the UK has a points based system so if you are highly educated with a good salary in the US you will most likely meet the highly skilled point quota and receive a work permit.
  - cesarbs 13y ago
    Would you know how hard it is to obtain permanent residency in those countries?
    - Saad_M 13y ago
      In the UK if you have a Tier 2 visa then you apply for "Indefinite leave to remain" after 5 years of residency. The only restrictions are that you cannot spend more than 180 days outside the UK in any 12 months and your employer (sponsor) still needs you for your job.
- cesarbs 13y ago
  I'm with you, it's really sad to see my wife getting depressed for not being able to work (she is a very qualified software engineer). She is going to college now, but she still worries that when she graduates she won't be able to find work because of 1) years away from the market and 2) H-1B caps being reached every year - she already missed an opportunity because she wasn't selected in last year's lottery.
chamanbuga 13y ago
My lawyer has been quoting this "may soon be allowed to work" for more than 3 years. My wife & I have given up on it. She's resigned to volunteering & working on hobbies. Considering how split the government is over these matters I doubt we'll see any reform in the next 5 years.
bubbleRefuge 13y ago
Does this mean that bodyshops like Infy,tcs,WP, get two for the price of one ? Lets say ole Raj went to some CS diploma mill in Bangalore. Then got a job at some Infy offshore hub where he learned PL/SQL and how to script in SAP land. Next, fell in love with the sexy girl in a nearby cube. After sweating bullets and pleading ( maybe a few cows were traded in the background), the families approved of the love marriage. Next, the husband bags a H1 via Infy to work in the IT dept at Cisco. Sexy hubby gets ez H1 and a job in IT at Marvel. Bingo! They can afford a 2br in Santa Clara. In fact, now the parents can visit for big chunks of time rather comfortably. Meanwhile, Infy has better margins and the American worker has slipped further into the abyss .
ThomPete 13y ago
Anyone knows if this will apply to O visas too?
- FreakNeko 13y ago
  No, it does not.
prot 13y ago
I don't understand immigration restrictions at all. If the US is afraid foreigners are coming to "take our jobs" and is concerned about its citizens well being, then why isn't it concerned with the fact that cheap foreign labor could save money to millions of americans while it currently doesn't, since immigration is restricted? Or if it is concerned that foreigners are going to use the social safety net without providing any value, how about not providing it to foreigners? There's absolutely no grounds for restricting immigration. The US was built on immigrants and now somehow it is no longer a viable policy?
letrerrr 13y ago
There goes the job market.
jameshart 13y ago
Having been through the process of being on an L-1 and having an L-2 wife who is permitted to work, it creates an interesting dynamic. The primary visaholder is tied to the sponsoring company - if they lose their job, both visas disappear. They clearly have less leverage in negotiating salary with their employer, with really only the visa requirement that they be paid a fair rate to protect their interests. The limited transferability of H1Bs gives them a little leverage - L-1s have no such negotiating power, other than the market rate for their skills overseas. The working spouse, on the other hand, is a relatively free participant in the employment market, so has far more leverage - able to freely negotiate salary (or to start a company of their own, or whatever). Of course they have hanging over them the risk that the master visa might go away at any time and they would be forced to stop working (and probably sell up and leave the country), but there is at least employment protection law to stop employers discriminating against a person who has the legal right to work on the basis of how they acquired that right.
- pinaceae 13y ago
  yes, this. only way out is for the L-1 holder to start the green card process to "upgrade" his/her status - provided this is desired. L-1 sometimes really is just for a temporary work assignment. While the L-2 + work permit sounds better, the smarter companies use the risk of the L-1 holder as leverage against the L-2 holder.
  - otoburb 13y ago
    The L-2 work permit is better than not being able to work at all. Companies (smart or not) can't really leverage an L-1 spouse against the L-2 job applicant in negotiations, although they might consider the L-1 holder a possible risk factor that might count against the L-2 job applicant. If this happened or played a critical role in candidate evaluation, it would be difficult to prove that the L-2 holder was discriminated against. The only time that a company could truly "leverage" the L-1 visa against an L-2 applicant is if the L-2 truly had nowhere else to apply except to the same company as the L-1 holder; but I feel that's an unlikely scenario. EDIT: To your point about upgrading the L-1 into permanent residence status, it's typically easier and quicker on the L-1/L-2 than via H-1B.
Havoc 13y ago
Progress...I have friends that went to the US on a similar Visa. She works..he sits at home. The raw skills are there: This is a guy that can take stones from a nearby hill, build a multi-storey natural stone house and have it pass structural and regulation specs. Now he sits at home and is bored out of his mind because he isn't even allowed to build his neighbors drive-way for a couple of bucks. I get the need to protect the local people's jobs but that is just criminal waste in my eyes. Both the ability and the willingness to contribute towards the GDP/country is there and yet regulation forces him to watch youtube/paint dry all day.
wittgenstein 13y ago
It is ridiculous that they're focusing on spouses of H-1B holders instead of fixing the innumerable flaws and pains embedded in the H-1B process altogether (six year limit, long wait time for a green card, the restriction an H-1B holder is subject to, etc.)
- scient 13y ago
  The thing is that you can actually have the company apply for a green card way before those 6 years, or you could apply for one yourself after living for 5 years in the US - and while your application is processing, you can extend your H1B indefinitely (until you get your GC result). So no, it's not really restricted to six years. Also the green card wait times are not THAT bad, its only for citizens of some countries (like India and China, due to the huge number of people from those countries). While the overall yearly limit is a problem for sure, I feel like fixing the H4 restrictions is actually a much bigger issue at this point.
FreakNeko 13y ago
I was an H-1B worker myself and was following this rule making progress. The rule was not something new -- it was lobbied by big name software companies, and has been on DHS/USCIS's policy making agenda since 2011 at least: http://www.reginfo.gov/public/servlet/ForwardServlet?SearchTarget=Agenda&textfield=1615-AB92 http://www.reginfo.gov/public/servlet/ForwardServlet?SearchT... The rule, as its currently proposed form, does not provide automatic work authorization to spouses of all H-1B workers. Rather, it allows "certain" H-4 spouses to be employment authorized. The subset of eligible H-4 spouses are defined as those "who have begun the process of seeking lawful permanent resident status through employment" and apparently before finishing it. Specifically, their H-1B spouses had to be in H-1B status for more than 6 years and are the beneficiaries of certain pending or approved employment-based immigrant petitions or labor certification applications. Congress employs numeric control over the number of employment-based green cards that can be issued each year. The process is very complicated, and the wait time is highly dependent on the country in which a beneficiary was born and the category of green card he/she sought. For beneficiaries from most countries, the wait for an employment-based green card (once you had an approved petition) is far less than 6 years. The only country that currently suffers a more-than-6-year backlog is India, whose current line for the "EB2" category is 10 years, and "EB3" 11 years. The current "backlog" is published by Department of State each month: http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/law-and-policy/bulletin/2014/visa-bulletin-for-may-2014.html http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/law-and-policy... Most applicants from countries other than those listed can finish their green card process well within the H-1B's 6-year limit, and do not benefit from this proposed rule.
eam 13y ago
>The U.S. is planning changes to the immigration rules that will make the country more attractive to talented foreign entrepreneurs and other high-skilled immigrants, the White House said in a statement Monday. Yeah, let's go ahead make it more attractive for talented foreign entrepreneurs, BUT let's only offer a few 65,000 H-1B visas per year... What's the point of making it more attractive if there aren't enough H-1B visas to go around in the first place. Seems some what cynical to me.
kirinkalia 13y ago
Whether you realize it or not, the US competes with many countries for top talent, including Australia, New Zealand and the UK (which have all done more to encourage skilled migration than our country). If this passes, it's a solid step to making us more competitive.
vorg 13y ago
Next year for certain source countries, some big corps will only sponsor male ICT workers where both they and their spouse have marketable skills. Upon arriving in the US, if the spouse doesn't work for half-wages at the sponsoring corp, the sponsored worker will have their job cancelled, resetting their wait for a green card.

189 points by dashausbass 13y ago

Great! I had so many colleagues in this situation - invariably it made starting a family more attractive as one spouse was basically stay-at-home anyway. I understand that Americans want jobs for Americans, but bringing in immigrants and letting them work means you get taxpayers whose education was subsidized by a foreign government. They basically are net contributors to the economy upon their first paycheck. The higher skilled they are, the more dramatic this effect. It seems like a huge net win to the US economy. I'm sure there's a good counterargument to this, but I'm biased being an immigrant myself.

akgerber 13y ago
As an American citizen, at least half of my employers have had at least one immigrant founder— immigration seems like a big contributor to the US' excellence in high tech. But H-1B visas aren't great for me, since they give so much more leverage to the employer and not the employee— just giving green cards or work visas to skilled immigrants would be much better.
- sigkill 13y ago
  Aren't H1B work visa? But I think your idea of the green card is pretty good to return the balance of employer/employee leverage. I wonder what abuses that might have though.
  - eshvk 13y ago
    I think what the parent implies by "work visa" is a visa that is not tied to the employer. The H1B as it stands now is just a proxy for indentured labor.
    - goshx 13y ago
      right, that requirement to be tied to the employer is also what prevents the H1B to run its own company (although H1B can start a business, (s)he is not allowed to run it.)
    - kosievdmerwe 13y ago
      > indentured labour. Could you explain, I'm not sure how this is the case?
      - eshvk 13y ago
        Sure. The way the H1B works is that it is tied to your employer. The employer knows this. You know it. This creates leverage on the part of the employer. How? Two ways: One, you get fired, you are out of status immediately, you have to leave the country ASAP or find a job immediately. So, you make sure you don't get fired. Two, an H1B employee is supposed to be paid the prevailing job market rate. For CA, San Francisco County, the max is around 100K. It is a pretty sum. BUT. It is also less than market rate as of six months ago (when I was job hunting). Now, most big companies don't need to exploit you. But a wily manager can easily fuck with you with enough awareness of the issue. Personally, I have noticed this phenomenon at smaller companies where a H1B candidate is potentially more attractive. I got a green card very recently, however, I am obviously not an American and am relatively young enough that I can be suspected of not having a Green Card. I have had a few situations where hiring managers were rather disappointed that I didn't need their help to acquire an H1B or for them to file for my green card.
- kosievdmerwe 13y ago
  How does an H-1B give leverage to the employer? You can change jobs, you just have to get your new employer to notify the state that they are now your employer.
avar 13y ago
The Netherlands even gives you a tax discount for 10 years if you're a highly skilled migrant, the criteria for being able to apply for it basically comes down to "is this person likely to need welfare? No? They get lower taxes then": http://www.expatica.com/nl/finance_business/tax/The-Dutch-30-percent-ruling_explained_11398.html http://www.expatica.com/nl/finance_business/tax/The-Dutch-30... It makes sense for states to enact programs like these for the reasons you pointed out. If you can get skilled migrants you get net contributors from day one.
- judk 13y ago
  It seems counterproductive to the point of welfare to have the people who need welfare pay for it. It isn't an insurance policy.
  - avar 13y ago
    No that's not what this policy does. For the sake of argument (and simplicity) let's say that schooling and other childhood / early adult expenses for the average citizen cost the state $100,000, and let's say that in return the state is likely to gain $200,000 in tax money back from citizens over their lifetime once they become productive members of society. It's pretty obvious that if you give adult immigrants who can immediately become contributing members of the economy a 1/3 tax discount that the state loses nothing, and only stands to gain from the deal, since they never had to pay those $100,000 to send them to school as children, that cost was offloaded to some other nation-state. The tax contribution of those immigrants to social programs like welfare is also going to be just the same as the contributions of native citizens, despite the lower tax rate, because the state isn't also using that tax money to pay for those $100,000 it never spent. If anything the flaw in the Dutch policy is that the tax discount isn't large enough, should last for more than 10 years (i.e. indefinitely, and should be larger if you promise to get out of the country before retirement), and that they should offer it to more immigrants, not just the highly skilled.
  - fennecfoxen 13y ago
    The welfare state has a limitation: it needs to be paid for. It also has a consequence: people who seek welfare may attempt to move to the welfare state in order to obtain it. This may imperil the ability of the state to pay for the welfare - or, at least, the willingness of the taxpayers to fund that welfare. So this impacts immigration policy. Insofar as the welfare state IS like an insurance policy, this is like the health insurance company denying coverage for a pre-existing condition.
djb_hackernews 13y ago
I'll provide a counter argument. The foreign workers aren't actually that high skilled and their education is questionable. So upon their first paycheck they are displacing local workers who could also do the job, putting extra pressure on local economies that they didn't "pay into", and giving more power to employers based on the restrictive nature of these foreign worker visas.
- ulfw 13y ago
  Yea. Because all locals are so highly educated. Have you seen CS departments at major school in the US? Look at the demographics and then think again.
  - djb_hackernews 13y ago
    I'm honestly not sure what point you are trying to make. That US CS programs aren't as rigorous as foreign programs? That US CS programs aren't also filled with foreign students, further displacing and out pricing citizens? My point is, we have 1.7 Million college educated grads currently unemployed[0]. We have an estimated 650,000 H1B workers[1]. I'd say we have plenty of educated, hard working, and able citizens to fill these positions. [0]http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm [1]https://cis.org/estimating-h1b-population-2-11 https://cis.org/estimating-h1b-population-2-11
    - _of 13y ago
      Look at any academic institution in the US in the life sciences. If you would take away the Europeans and Asians, what would be left?
      - a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
        The field would become more attractive to Americans and they would fill the empty places.
        13y ago

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levosmetalo 13y ago

It's a good news. It's one of the main reasons not to even consider moving to USA. Now, let's just fix ridiculously high taxes compared to Europe, sane healthcare system, work conditions and education system, and you might be up to something.

free652 13y ago
>let's just fix ridiculously high taxes compared to Europe, Eh? Europe has higher taxes. http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/50eef524ecad04766900000c-960/tax%20rates%20ranking%20100k.jpg http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/50eef524ecad0476690...
- deleted 13y ago
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- levosmetalo 13y ago
  Maybe higher nominal rates, but USA has much higher tax rates for what you get out of it. In many parts of Europe tax include social contributions, so you don't pay anything additionaly for haelthcare and retirement. You have free or almost free education up to the university level, subsidized child care, actual unemployment benefits, good transport infrastructure and many such things that you need to pay yourself in the USA. If you want to compare real effective tax rates, just add all these additional expenses to your tax amount and compare it to Europe. Than again, the chart doesn't include US state tax, so you are really taking into account only a part of US tax rate.
  - opendais 13y ago
    So lets raise taxes to European rates, reduce military spending, and ta da, you can get the same in the US. :P
  - free652 13y ago
    USA has SOCIAL contributions - FICA, SSI, Medicare. That's retirement, care for disabled and elderly. Our schools ARE free. It's easy to add up my healthcare insurance which isn't much - $250 per month - less than 2% of my income. The chart INCLUDES NYS tax. Source of that charts: http://www.businessinsider.com/america-taxes-charts-2013-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/america-taxes-charts-2013-1

goshx 13y ago

I hope it is true this time. I sent a question a few days ago: Ask HN: How many H1B holders here taking the H4 "punishment"? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7547839 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7547839 The current H4 only offers a disruption to the family. Nothing else.

shenoybr 13y ago

The proposal does not give a blanket approval for spouses of H1-B workers to work. It only allows spouses, for those H1-B holders who have maxed out the original 6 years on their visa and are now awaiting their turn in line for Green Cards (which for India and China is ridiculously long). But it still is progress. I'd hope they remove country based discrimination in EB visas. And better yet pass immigration reform sooner rather than later. Edit: Here is the link to the original proposal: http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=20121. http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=20121....

eshvk 13y ago
> I'd hope they remove country based discrimination in EB visas. And better yet pass immigration reform sooner rather than later. What country based discrimination? The quotas are to prevent two countries from flooding the immigration markets and making sure diversity exists.
- bankim 13y ago
  India and China are vast countries, the diversity should also take into account population/area of the country on which limits are enforced.
  - judk 13y ago
    In which we learn that there is not such thing as non-bias. Whether de facto or de jure, there are always biases. Either a person chooses them, or nature chooses them. There is no universally "fair" distribution over a scarce commodity.
  - eshvk 13y ago
    > India and China are vast countries, the diversity should also take into account population/area of the country on which limits are enforced. It is not clear to me how having a diverse country that is not dominated by immigrants from one or two ethnicities arrives from letting this happen. Or how it is fair to the guy from random tiny country X when he has to compete against two largest sources of immigrants to this country.

Deusdies 13y ago

Uh, don't remind me of H-1B. I am currently on F1 working as a software developer for a Fortune 500 company (with work permit / OPT), and my consulting agency said they'll apply for a H-1B visa for me, so I was very happy. Turns out, they actually tried to extend my work permit (which they couldn't in my case since I didn't actually graduate with CSci degree) and now I have my work permit expiring in July, and not sure if I'll be able to stay in the country because I'm not sure if H-1B visa will arrive in time.

craniumrat2 13y ago
Hi, If they did file a H1B for you this year, then you should be able to extend your OPT period till October. It's something called a 'cap gap' fix that was introduced around a couple of years ago. http://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations-and-fashion-models/extension-post-completion-optional-practical-training-opt-and-f-1-status-eligible-students-under-h-1b-cap-gap-regulations http://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers...
- Deusdies 13y ago
  Thanks a ton for this! I will forward this to my consulting agency.

judk 13y ago

This, and a thousand analogous reasons, is why gay marriage matters.

sharmajai 13y ago

Link to the whitehouse factsheet announcing this: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/04/07/fact-sheet-strengthening-entrepreneurship-home-and-abroad http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/04/07/fact-s... Relevant excerpt from the section "Attracting the World’s Best and Brightest": These proposed regulations include rules authorizing employment for spouses of certain high-skill workers on H-1B visas, as well as enhancing opportunities for outstanding professors and researchers. As to what certain means remains to be seen.

shenoybr 13y ago
'certain' in this context means: those H1B holders who have completed 6 years of the original visa term. They are compelled to either wait and languish in line, or go back home where their spouse can work. Edit: Not sure why I got downvoted. I was just paraphrasing the reasons given in the proposal. Its not an opinion. Don't shoot the messenger. See http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201310&RIN=1615-AB92# http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=20131...
- sharmajai 13y ago
  Where do you see that? If that is the case then it helps only those who applied for permanent residency late in their 6 year H1-B term hence they don't have EAD for their spouse through green card application but can extend their H1-B status indefinitely.
  - shenoybr 13y ago
    Here is the link to the original proposal: http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201210&RIN=1615-AB92 http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=20121...
- deleted 13y ago
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supercanuck 13y ago

I like Massachusetts trade off, if you are going to allow an influx of H1-B's and immigrants, do away with the non-compete. All it does is allow skim some cream of the top and control labor through myriad of shell companies and outsourcers. The real value if the initial hook up of the labor to the organization. There is no reason to behold a "contractor" to a company.

yankoff 13y ago

they say "for Indian programmers" like there are no other h1b programmers in the US :)

goshx 13y ago
I thought the same thing at first, but then I realized the reason is because this was posted to the section "India Realtime" of the WSJ :)

notnoop 13y ago

I maybe pessimistic, but I haven't seen any progress in H-4 employment proposals recently and the article doesn't point to any particular proposal. The Senate bill for Immigration reform passed the Senate last June, but the House isn't taking a vote on it. The house in turn had similar proposals last year in committee, but House leadership has no plans of putting them to a general vote at least till November elections.

makmanalp 13y ago

On one side I'm extremely happy that this might come to pass (might is a keyword in immigration legislation) because I personally know people who have been affected by this and can't work even though they're there. It's extremely frustrating for them to say the least, and extremely silly that people who want to be productive members of society can't. On the other hand, I'm not sure how fair it is to all the people who applied for an H-1B last year and this year who were forced to participate in the H-1B lottery and couldn't get into the quota of 85000. Now one winning lottery spot could be worth two workers instead of one. Who's to say that the spouse, who didn't even have to go through the trouble of finding an employer, convincing them to sponsor, applying, waiting for the lottery results, etc is more deserving of a work permit than those who did but just weren't lucky enough to win the quota lottery? I'm ashamed that I'm thinking of something so petty when I should be happy for those people, but having lost the lottery once, I can't help but feel a small tinge of jealousy and resentment. I would be happier if none of this was an issue in the first place.

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FollowSteph3 13y ago
Deserving or not the spouse is still there. So why block them from working if they're already there. It's not as fair as giving someone else an h1b but at the same you can't view it as trading one for the other. Instead you're just expanding what an h1b means. Again the person is already there so why not let them be productive...
- makmanalp 13y ago
  Yeah, after thinking again, I can't help but agree.
DrJokepu 13y ago
Words like "deserve" or "fair" are simply not part of the vocabulary when it comes to immigration. For example, while I am not a US citizen, my wife is which means that once I inevitably give in and agree to move to the United States with her (she's continuously pestering me with it) I will just get a green card after filing some paperwork. And you can rest assured that there are plenty of people more "deserving" of a green card than me.

schintan 13y ago

Would not the companies be wary of hiring people on H4 considering their authorization to work depends on their spouses maintaining their H1 status ? There is an inherent risk that the H-1B holding spouse might lose their job.

jdcryans 13y ago
Maybe, but I'm not sure if it matters. Like the article says, spouses of L-1s are already doing it, same for the spouses of Australian E-3 holders. From wikipedia: "spouses of E-3 visa holders may work in the United States without restrictions". So they can be baristas if they want to :)

gopalv 13y ago

Speaking as someone who moved to America on H1B with my wife - this is promising. In the back of my head, I'm preparing to go back next year if my awesome wife can't find anything to do - missed this year's H1 cap already. It's frustrating to watch her get depressed sitting at home and feeling like she's missing out. It's making me angry to come home every day to find her turning her energy inwards into frustration. She's more talented than me, just not in tech - she's into ads. The ad industry does not have the patience of the IT industry when it comes to keeping a req open for 6 months while the H1 processes. Australia & Canada are attractive options in my radar. At least, I'm sure I can work on hadoop from anywhere and get paid to ship open source code.

untitledwiz 13y ago
UK and Germany would also be good options. I know the UK has a points based system so if you are highly educated with a good salary in the US you will most likely meet the highly skilled point quota and receive a work permit.
- cesarbs 13y ago
  Would you know how hard it is to obtain permanent residency in those countries?
  - Saad_M 13y ago
    In the UK if you have a Tier 2 visa then you apply for "Indefinite leave to remain" after 5 years of residency. The only restrictions are that you cannot spend more than 180 days outside the UK in any 12 months and your employer (sponsor) still needs you for your job.
cesarbs 13y ago
I'm with you, it's really sad to see my wife getting depressed for not being able to work (she is a very qualified software engineer). She is going to college now, but she still worries that when she graduates she won't be able to find work because of 1) years away from the market and 2) H-1B caps being reached every year - she already missed an opportunity because she wasn't selected in last year's lottery.

chamanbuga 13y ago

My lawyer has been quoting this "may soon be allowed to work" for more than 3 years. My wife & I have given up on it. She's resigned to volunteering & working on hobbies. Considering how split the government is over these matters I doubt we'll see any reform in the next 5 years.

bubbleRefuge 13y ago

Does this mean that bodyshops like Infy,tcs,WP, get two for the price of one ? Lets say ole Raj went to some CS diploma mill in Bangalore. Then got a job at some Infy offshore hub where he learned PL/SQL and how to script in SAP land. Next, fell in love with the sexy girl in a nearby cube. After sweating bullets and pleading ( maybe a few cows were traded in the background), the families approved of the love marriage. Next, the husband bags a H1 via Infy to work in the IT dept at Cisco. Sexy hubby gets ez H1 and a job in IT at Marvel. Bingo! They can afford a 2br in Santa Clara. In fact, now the parents can visit for big chunks of time rather comfortably. Meanwhile, Infy has better margins and the American worker has slipped further into the abyss .

ThomPete 13y ago

Anyone knows if this will apply to O visas too?

FreakNeko 13y ago
No, it does not.

prot 13y ago

I don't understand immigration restrictions at all. If the US is afraid foreigners are coming to "take our jobs" and is concerned about its citizens well being, then why isn't it concerned with the fact that cheap foreign labor could save money to millions of americans while it currently doesn't, since immigration is restricted? Or if it is concerned that foreigners are going to use the social safety net without providing any value, how about not providing it to foreigners? There's absolutely no grounds for restricting immigration. The US was built on immigrants and now somehow it is no longer a viable policy?

letrerrr 13y ago

There goes the job market.

jameshart 13y ago

Having been through the process of being on an L-1 and having an L-2 wife who is permitted to work, it creates an interesting dynamic. The primary visaholder is tied to the sponsoring company - if they lose their job, both visas disappear. They clearly have less leverage in negotiating salary with their employer, with really only the visa requirement that they be paid a fair rate to protect their interests. The limited transferability of H1Bs gives them a little leverage - L-1s have no such negotiating power, other than the market rate for their skills overseas. The working spouse, on the other hand, is a relatively free participant in the employment market, so has far more leverage - able to freely negotiate salary (or to start a company of their own, or whatever). Of course they have hanging over them the risk that the master visa might go away at any time and they would be forced to stop working (and probably sell up and leave the country), but there is at least employment protection law to stop employers discriminating against a person who has the legal right to work on the basis of how they acquired that right.

pinaceae 13y ago
yes, this. only way out is for the L-1 holder to start the green card process to "upgrade" his/her status - provided this is desired. L-1 sometimes really is just for a temporary work assignment. While the L-2 + work permit sounds better, the smarter companies use the risk of the L-1 holder as leverage against the L-2 holder.
- otoburb 13y ago
  The L-2 work permit is better than not being able to work at all. Companies (smart or not) can't really leverage an L-1 spouse against the L-2 job applicant in negotiations, although they might consider the L-1 holder a possible risk factor that might count against the L-2 job applicant. If this happened or played a critical role in candidate evaluation, it would be difficult to prove that the L-2 holder was discriminated against. The only time that a company could truly "leverage" the L-1 visa against an L-2 applicant is if the L-2 truly had nowhere else to apply except to the same company as the L-1 holder; but I feel that's an unlikely scenario. EDIT: To your point about upgrading the L-1 into permanent residence status, it's typically easier and quicker on the L-1/L-2 than via H-1B.

Havoc 13y ago

Progress...I have friends that went to the US on a similar Visa. She works..he sits at home. The raw skills are there: This is a guy that can take stones from a nearby hill, build a multi-storey natural stone house and have it pass structural and regulation specs. Now he sits at home and is bored out of his mind because he isn't even allowed to build his neighbors drive-way for a couple of bucks. I get the need to protect the local people's jobs but that is just criminal waste in my eyes. Both the ability and the willingness to contribute towards the GDP/country is there and yet regulation forces him to watch youtube/paint dry all day.

wittgenstein 13y ago

It is ridiculous that they're focusing on spouses of H-1B holders instead of fixing the innumerable flaws and pains embedded in the H-1B process altogether (six year limit, long wait time for a green card, the restriction an H-1B holder is subject to, etc.)

scient 13y ago
The thing is that you can actually have the company apply for a green card way before those 6 years, or you could apply for one yourself after living for 5 years in the US - and while your application is processing, you can extend your H1B indefinitely (until you get your GC result). So no, it's not really restricted to six years. Also the green card wait times are not THAT bad, its only for citizens of some countries (like India and China, due to the huge number of people from those countries). While the overall yearly limit is a problem for sure, I feel like fixing the H4 restrictions is actually a much bigger issue at this point.

FreakNeko 13y ago

I was an H-1B worker myself and was following this rule making progress. The rule was not something new -- it was lobbied by big name software companies, and has been on DHS/USCIS's policy making agenda since 2011 at least: http://www.reginfo.gov/public/servlet/ForwardServlet?SearchTarget=Agenda&textfield=1615-AB92 http://www.reginfo.gov/public/servlet/ForwardServlet?SearchT... The rule, as its currently proposed form, does not provide automatic work authorization to spouses of all H-1B workers. Rather, it allows "certain" H-4 spouses to be employment authorized. The subset of eligible H-4 spouses are defined as those "who have begun the process of seeking lawful permanent resident status through employment" and apparently before finishing it. Specifically, their H-1B spouses had to be in H-1B status for more than 6 years and are the beneficiaries of certain pending or approved employment-based immigrant petitions or labor certification applications. Congress employs numeric control over the number of employment-based green cards that can be issued each year. The process is very complicated, and the wait time is highly dependent on the country in which a beneficiary was born and the category of green card he/she sought. For beneficiaries from most countries, the wait for an employment-based green card (once you had an approved petition) is far less than 6 years. The only country that currently suffers a more-than-6-year backlog is India, whose current line for the "EB2" category is 10 years, and "EB3" 11 years. The current "backlog" is published by Department of State each month: http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/law-and-policy/bulletin/2014/visa-bulletin-for-may-2014.html http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/law-and-policy... Most applicants from countries other than those listed can finish their green card process well within the H-1B's 6-year limit, and do not benefit from this proposed rule.

eam 13y ago

>The U.S. is planning changes to the immigration rules that will make the country more attractive to talented foreign entrepreneurs and other high-skilled immigrants, the White House said in a statement Monday. Yeah, let's go ahead make it more attractive for talented foreign entrepreneurs, BUT let's only offer a few 65,000 H-1B visas per year... What's the point of making it more attractive if there aren't enough H-1B visas to go around in the first place. Seems some what cynical to me.

kirinkalia 13y ago

Whether you realize it or not, the US competes with many countries for top talent, including Australia, New Zealand and the UK (which have all done more to encourage skilled migration than our country). If this passes, it's a solid step to making us more competitive.

vorg 13y ago

Next year for certain source countries, some big corps will only sponsor male ICT workers where both they and their spouse have marketable skills. Upon arriving in the US, if the spouse doesn't work for half-wages at the sponsoring corp, the sponsored worker will have their job cancelled, resetting their wait for a green card.