6 ms·

All of this talk, all of these comments, the charts in the TechCrunch article, etc. All of this is talking about Bitcoin the Speculative Investment. Bitcoin t

by nlh 13y ago

All of this talk, all of these comments, the charts in the TechCrunch article, etc. All of this is talking about Bitcoin the Speculative Investment. Bitcoin the Get-Rich-Quick Opportunity. Bitcoin the Penny Stock. Bitcoin the Internet Stock. Bitcoin the Tulip Bulb. Bitcoin the Currency doesn't have a chance of taking off until all of the above go away. When they do (if they do?), THEN we can have a real conversation about the future of money. Until then, however, this is going to be the same pattern we've seen over and over again for thousands of years. I hope for the sake of the folks that have invested $millions (VCs, etc.) that this time it's really different.

ewillbefull 13y ago
The conversation you're talking about is always happening, on IRC channels and mailing lists where work is actually discussed and merit trumps speculation.
dobbsbob 13y ago
Indeed, I've used Bitcoin since 2011 and never for speculating. I buy servers with it primarily and now use it to easily transfer money. Wait until the ETFs start trading, speculation into the stratosphere but at least it might eliminate crashes from incompetent exchange operators. For money transfer, I freq hire foreign employees for a variety of things like scouting large markets in Lagos to see what kinds of apps can be made for it, a survey on local Pakistani payment methods and currency exchange storefronts, translations in various countries ect. Paying by using existing remittance methods like western union and others had me flagged immediately and all my outgoing transactions were seized for "proof of income" and all sorts of other nonsense, even for small amounts like $150 transfer to Sri Lanka. It doesn't matter if I do this completely transparently, and operate through a business once you start moving money to the developing world and they aren't family members problems arise. I now send them bitcoins and direct them to whoever is cashing it out on localbitcoins.com. In every case, they made more money than what I sent them since supply of bitcoins in those countries is scarce so worth much more than the price I paid(1). Argentina localbitcoins is paying almost 2x what I buy them here for. (1)Of course I've also lucked out, there hasn't been a massive price drop between sending the coins and cashing them like there was the other day when it fell almost $200 Edit: Another bonus of bitcoin is 3rd party payment. I can pay somebody local here cash at a cafe a block away and they directly load the bitcoin address of my contractor, so I don't even pay micro transfer fees, or even need to handle coins myself. Usually it goes straight to their localbitcoin.com account and within 20mins they can sell the coins, reducing price fluctuation risk.
- lelandbatey 13y ago
  May I ask where you buy servers using Bitcoin? That definitely sounds like something I want to do, can you provide information for that?
  - garretruh 13y ago
    Not the GP, but there's a pretty extensive list of providers here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Virtual_private_server https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Virtual_private_server
  - dobbsbob 13y ago
    In addition to the bitcoin wiki there's also plenty of ads on bitcointalk.org and #bitcoin-otc IRC I've negotiated for shell accounts, rack space, and even AWS instances. Thanks to services like Bitpay most hosts accept Bitcoin now and if they don't email them with Bitpay's (or competitors) rate page showing no monthly fees, and next day bank deposit, and they'll go for it. What's to lose, Bitpay guarantees you will receive the price you ask for, provides an easy payment API, handles all the coins, and deposits it by end of day if you're US based. What I don't get is why Gold/Silver websites haven't created a 24hr, live trading site using bitcoin for payment. Buy all the gold you want through Bitpay with insured and guaranteed payment, no need to phone agents to get a price quote. Maybe there is some kind of law regarding identity of payment or something I don't know about.
  - trevelyan 13y ago
    I've also paid for some server infrastructure in bitcoin (allgamer.net). Less expensive than using credit cards in some cases.
  - obi-nine 13y ago
    http://www.thestupidmoose.com/ http://www.thestupidmoose.com/ lets you pay in bitcoin. Based in Canada.
dwaltrip 13y ago
Humans speculate. You can't change that. And it isn't mutually exclusive with Bitcoin the Currency being successful. The dollar fluctuates in value too. It is just older and bigger, so it moves far slower.
spiritplumber 13y ago
You're absolutely right. To me it also shows how speculative markets poison everything they touch (solar panel bubble 2011-2012).
erikpukinskis 13y ago
That's true, but the solution is not to stop talking. The solution is to finish the conversation. The world needs to come to consensus about what Bitcoin is and how its value moves, so that a price can be set and we can move on. The way to get to that point faster is to help the effort to answer those questions.
cLeEOGPw 13y ago
Another bad thing about bitcoin is that even traders who sell real products and services for bitcoins use dollar as a price, and then convert it to bitcoin in real time. This makes bitcoin completely unnecessary, it doesn't add value to bitcoin, but the opposite - everyone start assuming bitcoin is like some virtual dollar tokens that have no meaning if there are no actual dollars involved.
- jon-wood 13y ago
  > everyone start assuming bitcoin is like some virtual dollar tokens that have no meaning if there are no actual dollars involved. For most people that's true. I certainly can't pay my rent in BTC, so they'd have to be converted into actual currency to be of any value to me.
yen223 13y ago
100% agree. I see parallels between Bitcoin of 2010s and dotcoms of the late nineties - overvalued, overhyped, and predictably crashed hard. But what once the crash cleared all the hype and hysteria, what was left was something useful. And that's why tech is booming now. I foresee the same for Bitcoin. It will crash hard - heck, one could argue that it already has - but once people stop seeing it as an "investment" and start seeing it as something useful, cryptocurrencies just might rise again.

by nlh 13y ago

ewillbefull 13y ago

The conversation you're talking about is always happening, on IRC channels and mailing lists where work is actually discussed and merit trumps speculation.

dobbsbob 13y ago

Indeed, I've used Bitcoin since 2011 and never for speculating. I buy servers with it primarily and now use it to easily transfer money. Wait until the ETFs start trading, speculation into the stratosphere but at least it might eliminate crashes from incompetent exchange operators. For money transfer, I freq hire foreign employees for a variety of things like scouting large markets in Lagos to see what kinds of apps can be made for it, a survey on local Pakistani payment methods and currency exchange storefronts, translations in various countries ect. Paying by using existing remittance methods like western union and others had me flagged immediately and all my outgoing transactions were seized for "proof of income" and all sorts of other nonsense, even for small amounts like $150 transfer to Sri Lanka. It doesn't matter if I do this completely transparently, and operate through a business once you start moving money to the developing world and they aren't family members problems arise. I now send them bitcoins and direct them to whoever is cashing it out on localbitcoins.com. In every case, they made more money than what I sent them since supply of bitcoins in those countries is scarce so worth much more than the price I paid(1). Argentina localbitcoins is paying almost 2x what I buy them here for. (1)Of course I've also lucked out, there hasn't been a massive price drop between sending the coins and cashing them like there was the other day when it fell almost $200 Edit: Another bonus of bitcoin is 3rd party payment. I can pay somebody local here cash at a cafe a block away and they directly load the bitcoin address of my contractor, so I don't even pay micro transfer fees, or even need to handle coins myself. Usually it goes straight to their localbitcoin.com account and within 20mins they can sell the coins, reducing price fluctuation risk.

lelandbatey 13y ago
May I ask where you buy servers using Bitcoin? That definitely sounds like something I want to do, can you provide information for that?
- garretruh 13y ago
  Not the GP, but there's a pretty extensive list of providers here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Virtual_private_server https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Virtual_private_server
- dobbsbob 13y ago
  In addition to the bitcoin wiki there's also plenty of ads on bitcointalk.org and #bitcoin-otc IRC I've negotiated for shell accounts, rack space, and even AWS instances. Thanks to services like Bitpay most hosts accept Bitcoin now and if they don't email them with Bitpay's (or competitors) rate page showing no monthly fees, and next day bank deposit, and they'll go for it. What's to lose, Bitpay guarantees you will receive the price you ask for, provides an easy payment API, handles all the coins, and deposits it by end of day if you're US based. What I don't get is why Gold/Silver websites haven't created a 24hr, live trading site using bitcoin for payment. Buy all the gold you want through Bitpay with insured and guaranteed payment, no need to phone agents to get a price quote. Maybe there is some kind of law regarding identity of payment or something I don't know about.
- trevelyan 13y ago
  I've also paid for some server infrastructure in bitcoin (allgamer.net). Less expensive than using credit cards in some cases.
- obi-nine 13y ago
  http://www.thestupidmoose.com/ http://www.thestupidmoose.com/ lets you pay in bitcoin. Based in Canada.

dwaltrip 13y ago

Humans speculate. You can't change that. And it isn't mutually exclusive with Bitcoin the Currency being successful. The dollar fluctuates in value too. It is just older and bigger, so it moves far slower.

spiritplumber 13y ago

You're absolutely right. To me it also shows how speculative markets poison everything they touch (solar panel bubble 2011-2012).

erikpukinskis 13y ago

That's true, but the solution is not to stop talking. The solution is to finish the conversation. The world needs to come to consensus about what Bitcoin is and how its value moves, so that a price can be set and we can move on. The way to get to that point faster is to help the effort to answer those questions.

cLeEOGPw 13y ago

Another bad thing about bitcoin is that even traders who sell real products and services for bitcoins use dollar as a price, and then convert it to bitcoin in real time. This makes bitcoin completely unnecessary, it doesn't add value to bitcoin, but the opposite - everyone start assuming bitcoin is like some virtual dollar tokens that have no meaning if there are no actual dollars involved.

jon-wood 13y ago
> everyone start assuming bitcoin is like some virtual dollar tokens that have no meaning if there are no actual dollars involved. For most people that's true. I certainly can't pay my rent in BTC, so they'd have to be converted into actual currency to be of any value to me.

yen223 13y ago

100% agree. I see parallels between Bitcoin of 2010s and dotcoms of the late nineties - overvalued, overhyped, and predictably crashed hard. But what once the crash cleared all the hype and hysteria, what was left was something useful. And that's why tech is booming now. I foresee the same for Bitcoin. It will crash hard - heck, one could argue that it already has - but once people stop seeing it as an "investment" and start seeing it as something useful, cryptocurrencies just might rise again.