5 ms·

Another way of looking at it is that shame is a good disincentive for ignorance. It shouldn't be OK to ask questions like "what's Lisp?" or "what's synchronizat

Another way of looking at it is that shame is a good disincentive for ignorance. It shouldn't be OK to ask questions like "what's Lisp?" or "what's synchronization?" (both of which I've heard). We can enforce that norm by rewarding such questions with a grimace. Of course, the absolute most important thing is to make sure that the environment doesn't become toxic with disdain, but I don't think it's in general a sin to "feign surprise" or similar.

Dolimiter 13y ago
It should be OK to ask any question, that is how we learn. The passive aggressive "rewarding with a grimace" creates a toxic work environment.
AndrewDucker 13y ago
If it's not ok then make that clear up-front and then tell people when they've crossed over into an area that you expect them to understand on their own. Doing it in a comedic fashion doesn't help, it's just bullying.
- brianpgordon 13y ago
  Playing out that scene, I can't imagine taking your approach in actual conversation with a peer. Peer: Synchronized? Me: I'm sorry, you've crossed over into an area that I expect you to understand on your own. That kind of room-silencing confrontation makes you seem like way more of an asshole than answering their question but with a raised eyebrow or feigned surprise.
  - AndrewDucker 13y ago
    Nope, an arched eyebrow makes you look like much more of a dick there. Because you're implying that it's basic stuff, _and_ that it's not even worth you telling them that, because they're so beneath you at that point. In a meeting with a peer (rather than a training course/academy situation) you'd presumably tell them that that's fairly basic stuff that you don't want to derail a meeting with, and that you'd point them at some resources later.
    - brianpgordon 13y ago
      > you're implying that it's basic stuff, _and_ that it's not even worth you telling them that, because they're so beneath you at that point That's not how I'd mean it at all. Maybe I'm overanalyzing our folkways but in general it seems to be more polite to communicate something unpleasant in a way which the other person can pretend to not have noticed. Twitching your nose when you know they're looking is more polite than saying "dude you've got BO." It allows you to gloss over the unpleasantness and continue the conversation.
- collyw 13y ago
  Gasp! You must have had a sheltered life if that is what bullying entails t you.
marvin 13y ago
This attitude is exactly what this article says is not okay, because it creates a toxic environment.
tks2103 13y ago
Shame is a pretty poor incentive or disincentive for anything. It actively prevents connections between people.
- brianpgordon 13y ago
  I know that whenever I'm embarrassed in conversation by my lack of knowledge about something, it drives me to learn everything I can about it.
  - philbarr 13y ago
    ...and you won't be able to learn anything from the people around you because they don't want to tell you anything because you're the smart arse that grimaces every time they get something slightly wrong.
  - spuz 13y ago
    You'd learn a lot more and more quickly by having a conversation with those that know more than you do.
  - cail 13y ago
    You seem to be making the erroneous assumption that everyone is motivated in the same way as you. Personally, if someone embarrasses me in a conversation in this way I'm going to feel like an idiot and resent them for making me feel that way. When this kind of thing happens it feels to me like they'd rather have someone to laugh at and feel superior to than help that person better their skills. I don't have much respect for that. If they point me in the direction of some resources or help me learn it I'm going to respect them more because it makes it clear they care about their craft. They don't feel the need to feel superior, they'd rather have a peer on their level. My point really is just that different people are motivated in different ways and what may motivate you has the opposite effect on others.
sjtrny 13y ago
The problem with this is people stop asking questions or start pretending that they know everything. Are you saying that Wikipedia should sneer at you for not knowing the chemical composition of the painkiller your doctor prescribed to you?
stdbrouw 13y ago
But that's a game everybody rigs to their own advantage: ignorance is defined as not knowing something that I know. You always win, everybody else always loses. That person who doesn't know what Lisp is, might be an expert on finite state machines and maybe you don't know anything about that. Or maybe they're just junior: someone with great potential to grow but without the benefit of experience. Surely there's better ways of detecting who's an idiot and who isn't than a jargon competition. Also see http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/08/21/the-illusion-of-asymmetric-insight/ http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/08/21/the-illusion-of-asymm...
SixSigma 13y ago
I can think of multiple definitions of synchronization from CS. Clocks for one, file content replication for another, version numbers of software a third.
- brianpgordon 13y ago
  It was in the context of the Java language.
  - SixSigma 13y ago
    A place where one should already be aware of the dangers of overloading.
michaelochurch 13y ago
It shouldn't be OK to ask questions like "what's Lisp?" or "what's synchronization?" (both of which I've heard). I have more of a problem with the people who think they know something and reject it out of hand (typical executive attitude) than those who admit they don't. You and I, as well, once did not know what Lisp is.
marknutter 13y ago
It's a disincentive for ignorance, but not a good one. Nobody should ever be shamed for not knowing something, even if you personally feel they should know it, so long as they are willing and eager to learn it. If they stubbornly refuse to learn something after it becomes clear that they'd better for knowing it, thats when it's ok to feign surprise. But for goodness sake at least give them a chance to learn before you shame them.
notduncansmith 13y ago
I absolutely agree that it's not OK for a professional to ask a question like that. An intern, maybe. I also think, however, that there are better ways to deal with it. For example, if someone has never heard of Lisp, go ahead and explain it, but make a mental note of it. If you continue to find them asking questions that suggest they spent most of their development career under a rock, present those concerns to your employer. Help them make a decision whether or not this person is able to perform at the level they need to. If it's a one-off thing though, and they seem otherwise fairly competent, then it's a good thing you didn't act like a jerk because now the person doesn't resent you, and they won't have to ask you what Lisp is again. Source: I've worked with several developers at a level much lower than I expected, this was in one case how I wished I had reacted, and in two other cases how I did and it worked out well.
davidw 13y ago
At 38, I'm much more ignorant than I was at 18, mostly because as I have aged I continue to realize how stunningly large and complex the world is, and how many subjects I will never know more than a little bit about.
- leephillips 13y ago
  Wait until you get to my age. You won't know a damn thing.
PhasmaFelis 13y ago
One of the many reasons this is a bad idea hasn't been mentioned yet, I think: If you are a well-meaning, eager-to-learn, but woefully ignorant coder, you probably don't know enough to know which questions are stupid. After the first time or two that someone humiliates you for asking stupid questions, you don't just stop asking stupid questions, you stop asking questions entirely. I've been this guy. There was a good long while when I would just bob my head through stuff that I didn't understand at all because I was afraid of being humiliated in public, and then go back to my desk and spend hours trying to figure out what I was supposed to be doing. I was lucky enough, a few years back, to run into a very understanding mentor who put some effort into deprogramming me and making it clear that it was okay to ask stupid questions. Making people feel small for being ignorant isn't just rude, it actively destroys productivity.

Dolimiter 13y ago

It should be OK to ask any question, that is how we learn. The passive aggressive "rewarding with a grimace" creates a toxic work environment.

AndrewDucker 13y ago

If it's not ok then make that clear up-front and then tell people when they've crossed over into an area that you expect them to understand on their own. Doing it in a comedic fashion doesn't help, it's just bullying.

brianpgordon 13y ago
Playing out that scene, I can't imagine taking your approach in actual conversation with a peer. Peer: Synchronized? Me: I'm sorry, you've crossed over into an area that I expect you to understand on your own. That kind of room-silencing confrontation makes you seem like way more of an asshole than answering their question but with a raised eyebrow or feigned surprise.
- AndrewDucker 13y ago
  Nope, an arched eyebrow makes you look like much more of a dick there. Because you're implying that it's basic stuff, _and_ that it's not even worth you telling them that, because they're so beneath you at that point. In a meeting with a peer (rather than a training course/academy situation) you'd presumably tell them that that's fairly basic stuff that you don't want to derail a meeting with, and that you'd point them at some resources later.
  - brianpgordon 13y ago
    > you're implying that it's basic stuff, _and_ that it's not even worth you telling them that, because they're so beneath you at that point That's not how I'd mean it at all. Maybe I'm overanalyzing our folkways but in general it seems to be more polite to communicate something unpleasant in a way which the other person can pretend to not have noticed. Twitching your nose when you know they're looking is more polite than saying "dude you've got BO." It allows you to gloss over the unpleasantness and continue the conversation.
collyw 13y ago
Gasp! You must have had a sheltered life if that is what bullying entails t you.

marvin 13y ago

This attitude is exactly what this article says is not okay, because it creates a toxic environment.

tks2103 13y ago

Shame is a pretty poor incentive or disincentive for anything. It actively prevents connections between people.

brianpgordon 13y ago
I know that whenever I'm embarrassed in conversation by my lack of knowledge about something, it drives me to learn everything I can about it.
- philbarr 13y ago
  ...and you won't be able to learn anything from the people around you because they don't want to tell you anything because you're the smart arse that grimaces every time they get something slightly wrong.
- spuz 13y ago
  You'd learn a lot more and more quickly by having a conversation with those that know more than you do.
- cail 13y ago
  You seem to be making the erroneous assumption that everyone is motivated in the same way as you. Personally, if someone embarrasses me in a conversation in this way I'm going to feel like an idiot and resent them for making me feel that way. When this kind of thing happens it feels to me like they'd rather have someone to laugh at and feel superior to than help that person better their skills. I don't have much respect for that. If they point me in the direction of some resources or help me learn it I'm going to respect them more because it makes it clear they care about their craft. They don't feel the need to feel superior, they'd rather have a peer on their level. My point really is just that different people are motivated in different ways and what may motivate you has the opposite effect on others.

sjtrny 13y ago

The problem with this is people stop asking questions or start pretending that they know everything. Are you saying that Wikipedia should sneer at you for not knowing the chemical composition of the painkiller your doctor prescribed to you?

stdbrouw 13y ago

But that's a game everybody rigs to their own advantage: ignorance is defined as not knowing something that I know. You always win, everybody else always loses. That person who doesn't know what Lisp is, might be an expert on finite state machines and maybe you don't know anything about that. Or maybe they're just junior: someone with great potential to grow but without the benefit of experience. Surely there's better ways of detecting who's an idiot and who isn't than a jargon competition. Also see http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/08/21/the-illusion-of-asymmetric-insight/ http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/08/21/the-illusion-of-asymm...

SixSigma 13y ago

I can think of multiple definitions of synchronization from CS. Clocks for one, file content replication for another, version numbers of software a third.

brianpgordon 13y ago
It was in the context of the Java language.
- SixSigma 13y ago
  A place where one should already be aware of the dangers of overloading.

michaelochurch 13y ago

It shouldn't be OK to ask questions like "what's Lisp?" or "what's synchronization?" (both of which I've heard). I have more of a problem with the people who think they know something and reject it out of hand (typical executive attitude) than those who admit they don't. You and I, as well, once did not know what Lisp is.

marknutter 13y ago

It's a disincentive for ignorance, but not a good one. Nobody should ever be shamed for not knowing something, even if you personally feel they should know it, so long as they are willing and eager to learn it. If they stubbornly refuse to learn something after it becomes clear that they'd better for knowing it, thats when it's ok to feign surprise. But for goodness sake at least give them a chance to learn before you shame them.

notduncansmith 13y ago

I absolutely agree that it's not OK for a professional to ask a question like that. An intern, maybe. I also think, however, that there are better ways to deal with it. For example, if someone has never heard of Lisp, go ahead and explain it, but make a mental note of it. If you continue to find them asking questions that suggest they spent most of their development career under a rock, present those concerns to your employer. Help them make a decision whether or not this person is able to perform at the level they need to. If it's a one-off thing though, and they seem otherwise fairly competent, then it's a good thing you didn't act like a jerk because now the person doesn't resent you, and they won't have to ask you what Lisp is again. Source: I've worked with several developers at a level much lower than I expected, this was in one case how I wished I had reacted, and in two other cases how I did and it worked out well.

davidw 13y ago

At 38, I'm much more ignorant than I was at 18, mostly because as I have aged I continue to realize how stunningly large and complex the world is, and how many subjects I will never know more than a little bit about.

leephillips 13y ago
Wait until you get to my age. You won't know a damn thing.

PhasmaFelis 13y ago

One of the many reasons this is a bad idea hasn't been mentioned yet, I think: If you are a well-meaning, eager-to-learn, but woefully ignorant coder, you probably don't know enough to know which questions are stupid. After the first time or two that someone humiliates you for asking stupid questions, you don't just stop asking stupid questions, you stop asking questions entirely. I've been this guy. There was a good long while when I would just bob my head through stuff that I didn't understand at all because I was afraid of being humiliated in public, and then go back to my desk and spend hours trying to figure out what I was supposed to be doing. I was lucky enough, a few years back, to run into a very understanding mentor who put some effort into deprogramming me and making it clear that it was okay to ask stupid questions. Making people feel small for being ignorant isn't just rude, it actively destroys productivity.