28 ms·

Another Damning Homeopathy Report

25 points by tokenadult 13y ago

sillysaurus3 13y ago
There's one type of homeopathy story I haven't yet heard: a reformation story. Has anyone heard of many homeopathists who have renounced their ways? If so, then what ultimately convinced them? Hearing that Steve Jobs lost his life due to his insistence to treat his cancer with homeopathy is what convinced me that homeopathy is probably going to be with humanity forever. If someone as shrewd, rational, and rich as Jobs can fall victim to seductive thinking, then it must be true that education isn't enough. In order for education to be effective, it requires someone willing to learn. Was Jobs such a person? If so, then how is it that he still fell victim to homeopathy? It seems being a homeopathist is a part of one's identity, the way being a vegetarian or a democrat or a hacker or a christian is. I don't understand why it's so difficult to change, but it's certainly an example of the destructive power of choosing the wrong identity.
- Detrus 13y ago
  There are many people with a medical degree practicing it. UK's NHS supports it. Holy water is much cheaper than the drug industry's offerings. It's a placebo or alternative treatment for a lot of light ailments. Just like folk remedies, most of the time it "works" and you come out alive and well so it's not hard to believe. Of course it's offensive to science on ideological grounds. And if someone were to recommend it for a definite diagnosis of cancer that would be irresponsible. As for Steve Jobs, rationality was not his key to success.
  - Oletros 13y ago
    Is really an homeopathic treatment cheaper than real medicines? Boiron is not cheap.
denom 13y ago
Science cannot and will never be able to demonstrate how homeopathy does not work, only that it works about as well as a placebo. So we are left with stories like this, which basically states that these two unknown things (placebos and homeopathy) are scientifically indistinguishable. That much is painfully clear. Is there anything that this article brings to the debate that is new/original?
- sillysaurus3 13y ago
  Being indistinguishable from a placebo is equivalent to "as powerful as your mind," though. Which is to say, if your mind can't cure cancer, then neither can homeopathy. Isn't that pretty close to demonstrating it doesn't work?
  - denom 13y ago
    maybe, but I think you are assuming that we can, scientifically or otherwise, distinguish (categorize) everything that is real. I'm inclined to believe that this is not possible. In that case indistinguishability becomes equivalent to saying nothing at all in scientific terms. The arguments in these kinds of articles have no choice but to become very tedious, mainly focusing on how people are getting ripped off, they cannot determine why homeopathic cures operate the same way as placebos--or not, which is the crux of the homeopathic argument.
    - letstryagain 13y ago
      > I'm inclined to believe that this is not possible. That's the most ignorant thing I've read all day.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - denom 13y ago
        Wow, I didn't realize that I would get downvoted here. Let's see if I can explain myself. Consider a few examples of things that science cannot distinguish: * The speed and position of an electron cloud ensemble. * The moment a radioactive particle will decay Anyways, my point was that homeopathy stories like the one we are talking about revolve around this formula: 1) peer reviewed studies show that homeopathy works as a placebo 2) ordinary people don't understand science 3) people are getting ripped off! For me the interesting stuff is in #1. The debate over homeopathy is epistemological, over how we can know things. I have not seen any scientific research on how homeopathic works, or does not work, in the same way as a placebo. Anything less than this and the "rational" argument becomes "just don't take it because it's a placebo". Which is not a reason to cease taking homeopathic products, because doctors _prescribe_ placebos, and I have never seen an article like this that attacks doctors who prescribe placebos. http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/news/20081023/50percent-of-doctors-give-fake-prescriptions http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/news/20081023/50percent...
ps4fanboy 13y ago
Just need to do some more reports on chiropractors now, they have the audacity to call themselves doctors in Australia.
rhth54656 13y ago
I know youtube videos are off-topic but this parody on homeopathy is too brilliant not to post. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
cyberjunkie 13y ago
James Randi ridicules homeopathy really well. He downs 2 weeks of sleeping pills dosage, which should obviously be lethal. He does this very often. Check the videos on Youtube.
- frobozz 13y ago
  Surely a lethal homeopathic dose would be _less_ than the standard dose, not _more_.

25 points by tokenadult 13y ago

There's one type of homeopathy story I haven't yet heard: a reformation story. Has anyone heard of many homeopathists who have renounced their ways? If so, then what ultimately convinced them? Hearing that Steve Jobs lost his life due to his insistence to treat his cancer with homeopathy is what convinced me that homeopathy is probably going to be with humanity forever. If someone as shrewd, rational, and rich as Jobs can fall victim to seductive thinking, then it must be true that education isn't enough. In order for education to be effective, it requires someone willing to learn. Was Jobs such a person? If so, then how is it that he still fell victim to homeopathy? It seems being a homeopathist is a part of one's identity, the way being a vegetarian or a democrat or a hacker or a christian is. I don't understand why it's so difficult to change, but it's certainly an example of the destructive power of choosing the wrong identity.

Detrus 13y ago
There are many people with a medical degree practicing it. UK's NHS supports it. Holy water is much cheaper than the drug industry's offerings. It's a placebo or alternative treatment for a lot of light ailments. Just like folk remedies, most of the time it "works" and you come out alive and well so it's not hard to believe. Of course it's offensive to science on ideological grounds. And if someone were to recommend it for a definite diagnosis of cancer that would be irresponsible. As for Steve Jobs, rationality was not his key to success.
- Oletros 13y ago
  Is really an homeopathic treatment cheaper than real medicines? Boiron is not cheap.

denom 13y ago

Science cannot and will never be able to demonstrate how homeopathy does not work, only that it works about as well as a placebo. So we are left with stories like this, which basically states that these two unknown things (placebos and homeopathy) are scientifically indistinguishable. That much is painfully clear. Is there anything that this article brings to the debate that is new/original?

sillysaurus3 13y ago
Being indistinguishable from a placebo is equivalent to "as powerful as your mind," though. Which is to say, if your mind can't cure cancer, then neither can homeopathy. Isn't that pretty close to demonstrating it doesn't work?
- denom 13y ago
  maybe, but I think you are assuming that we can, scientifically or otherwise, distinguish (categorize) everything that is real. I'm inclined to believe that this is not possible. In that case indistinguishability becomes equivalent to saying nothing at all in scientific terms. The arguments in these kinds of articles have no choice but to become very tedious, mainly focusing on how people are getting ripped off, they cannot determine why homeopathic cures operate the same way as placebos--or not, which is the crux of the homeopathic argument.
  - letstryagain 13y ago
    > I'm inclined to believe that this is not possible. That's the most ignorant thing I've read all day.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - denom 13y ago
      Wow, I didn't realize that I would get downvoted here. Let's see if I can explain myself. Consider a few examples of things that science cannot distinguish: * The speed and position of an electron cloud ensemble. * The moment a radioactive particle will decay Anyways, my point was that homeopathy stories like the one we are talking about revolve around this formula: 1) peer reviewed studies show that homeopathy works as a placebo 2) ordinary people don't understand science 3) people are getting ripped off! For me the interesting stuff is in #1. The debate over homeopathy is epistemological, over how we can know things. I have not seen any scientific research on how homeopathic works, or does not work, in the same way as a placebo. Anything less than this and the "rational" argument becomes "just don't take it because it's a placebo". Which is not a reason to cease taking homeopathic products, because doctors _prescribe_ placebos, and I have never seen an article like this that attacks doctors who prescribe placebos. http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/news/20081023/50percent-of-doctors-give-fake-prescriptions http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/news/20081023/50percent...

ps4fanboy 13y ago

Just need to do some more reports on chiropractors now, they have the audacity to call themselves doctors in Australia.

rhth54656 13y ago

I know youtube videos are off-topic but this parody on homeopathy is too brilliant not to post. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

cyberjunkie 13y ago

James Randi ridicules homeopathy really well. He downs 2 weeks of sleeping pills dosage, which should obviously be lethal. He does this very often. Check the videos on Youtube.

frobozz 13y ago
Surely a lethal homeopathic dose would be _less_ than the standard dose, not _more_.