4 ms·

If you go through life believing that any prejudice (sexism, in this case) is dominating your career growth, you will always look for it in the tea leaves, proj

If you go through life believing that any prejudice (sexism, in this case) is dominating your career growth, you will always look for it in the tea leaves, project it onto any situation, and in return invite it. In truth, the person who is prejudiced is you. For better or worse, disadvantaged minorities always have to consider this. It's probably one of the biggest privileges that white males have in day to day life -- they rarely need to consider if race/gender played a role in any decision they encounter. There was an interesting experimental study that showed that a white male just released from prison was as likely to get a job callback as a black male with no criminal record [1]. There are typically multiple factors at play for any employment decision, but race and gender loom very large -- large enough that ignoring it is just ignorance. And note, that the domain matters. Jeremy Lin faced discrimination as a basketball player being Asian. But for most domains, being a white male is preferred. [1] Discrimination in a Low-Wage Labor Market: A Field Experiment, Am Sociol Rev. Oct 1, 2009; 74(5): 777–799, http://www.princeton.edu/~pager/ASR_pager_etal09.pdf http://www.princeton.edu/~pager/ASR_pager_etal09.pdf

sunir 13y ago
First, not everyone here is a white male. Second, statistics that measure the state are not direct evidence. Individual cases may or may not fit. There may be statistics that measure a company that demonstrate a bias, but unless you have direct evidence of that, it's better to not burden your mind with that negativity. Third, you aren't a statistic. You have to keep developing and getting better. Don't internalize the statistical oppression. Internalization is the worst form of oppression.
- tedks 13y ago
  It is incredibly, blindingly privileged to say that internalized oppression is the worst form of oppression. Being oppressed is the worst form of oppression. And, for people who aren't white men, oppression is a lived reality, not an abstract concept that you can attempt to rationalize away. It is both rational and justified to think that prejudice is a predominant factor in virtually everything, because it is. Finally, oppression isn't "statistical." The people who cause those statistics have names, faces, and addresses. As do the people who act as their apologists. The personal is the political, but the political is also personal.
  - ivanca 13y ago
    If this is true why so many homeless are white men? If this is true why being a soldier, the worst job in the world (because amputations and PTSD are no fun) is done by so many white men? Where is the "privilege" you talk about there? And there is no intrinsic racism against others by white men, where I'm from (Colombia) everyone is brown-ish but there is still a lot of racism against black people, just for being the majority not for being white.
    - pessimizer 13y ago
      And why would people say that planes are for flying when there are so many on the ground? Where do you see this "flying" then? And what of broken planes, or model planes, or photographs of planes? Next time you see a photograph of a plane flying through the sky at 20,000 feet you can try again to convince me that racism exists, buddy.
      - ivanca 13y ago
        Actually I never said racism didn't exist.
        pessimizer 13y ago
        You didn't. I did. Because planes.
        ivanca 13y ago
        Yeah, your attempts to use sarcasm to show your point are not any good.
        ffbellfhtlflf 13y ago
        It's a cancerous post modern rhetorical strategy, where people are so convinced that they are absolutely, 100% correct that they use shitty sarcasm to the point of absurdity, then try to call you out for not "getting" a shitty half baked idea, a là reddit/r/shitredditsays
- rayiner 13y ago
  I don't disagree that your attitude is more productive, but telling people to ignore statistics and assume that they're a special snowflake would be considered unsound advice in any other context.
mseebach 13y ago
There is a big difference between considering prejudice and then assuming it in the face of a plausible, alternative explanation.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- kenjackson 13y ago
  EDIT: Original post edited so making slight changes. Considering it is a federal crime to not hire based on race, most employers don't provide the information as to why they break this federal law so readily -- they just do it since it is hard to prove. So in summary... "Of course we discriminate. We have what we consider awesome reason to do so." I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to be Black and trying to get a job, and run across people like you who won't even give you a chance because they so clearly know how poor of an employee you'd be. Even worse they don't come out front and say it. Well maybe you could fly a confederate flag -- a not so subtle hint, but not an admission of guilt. But at least for your own comfort -- you're clearly not alone.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
    - kenjackson 13y ago
      Keeping quiet to protect this person who discriminates based on race is where you draw the line with your moral compass... You find no irony in this?
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
        kenjackson 13y ago
        Someone burning out from hiring whites? I've never heard such a thing. I doubt that Google looks at its stack ranking and says, "Wow, we have a lot of white underperformers". That was one of my original points -- whites are almost never judged on the basis of race, whereas others are. You seem to be confirming that fact -- but trying to justify it. Race and gender are both protected groups, although treated differently. There are laws in place meant to stop the type of discrimination that you seem to want to justify. Contrived examples are not useful. Maybe we'll find out that Asians can cure cancer by touching people -- sure then I'd prefer they become oncologists. But in the real world what you do is test/interview for skills, and sometimes you'll see data that disproportionately over/under-represents a group. That is fine, and that is good to discuss. You'll often find that this bias is due to some other factor. Simply discriminating because your miniscule sample (and likely media/culturally induced bias) gives you a bias, is almost the canonical definition of racism. There was a time in my lifetime that Blacks were not considered smart enough to be quarterbacks. The data seemed to support it (when Doug Williams was drafted, there had been a total of 11 Black QBs in NFL history). In less than a generation we now have Blacks overrepresented in the NFL as QB (as compared to the population, not as compared to Blacks in the NFL). And another Black QB won the Super Bowl, largely viewed as one of the smartest players in the game. The good thing is that sports tends to really favor skills assessment over the long haul (the scoreboard is a pretty good reflection of quality). Except in the most exceptional cases, I'd suggest others do the same.
Crake 13y ago
>disadvantaged minorities always have to consider this. It's probably one of the biggest privileges that white males have in day to day life White males can be minorities, too.

sunir 13y ago

First, not everyone here is a white male. Second, statistics that measure the state are not direct evidence. Individual cases may or may not fit. There may be statistics that measure a company that demonstrate a bias, but unless you have direct evidence of that, it's better to not burden your mind with that negativity. Third, you aren't a statistic. You have to keep developing and getting better. Don't internalize the statistical oppression. Internalization is the worst form of oppression.

tedks 13y ago
It is incredibly, blindingly privileged to say that internalized oppression is the worst form of oppression. Being oppressed is the worst form of oppression. And, for people who aren't white men, oppression is a lived reality, not an abstract concept that you can attempt to rationalize away. It is both rational and justified to think that prejudice is a predominant factor in virtually everything, because it is. Finally, oppression isn't "statistical." The people who cause those statistics have names, faces, and addresses. As do the people who act as their apologists. The personal is the political, but the political is also personal.
- ivanca 13y ago
  If this is true why so many homeless are white men? If this is true why being a soldier, the worst job in the world (because amputations and PTSD are no fun) is done by so many white men? Where is the "privilege" you talk about there? And there is no intrinsic racism against others by white men, where I'm from (Colombia) everyone is brown-ish but there is still a lot of racism against black people, just for being the majority not for being white.
  - pessimizer 13y ago
    And why would people say that planes are for flying when there are so many on the ground? Where do you see this "flying" then? And what of broken planes, or model planes, or photographs of planes? Next time you see a photograph of a plane flying through the sky at 20,000 feet you can try again to convince me that racism exists, buddy.
    - ivanca 13y ago
      Actually I never said racism didn't exist.
      - pessimizer 13y ago
        You didn't. I did. Because planes.
        ivanca 13y ago
        Yeah, your attempts to use sarcasm to show your point are not any good.
        ffbellfhtlflf 13y ago
        It's a cancerous post modern rhetorical strategy, where people are so convinced that they are absolutely, 100% correct that they use shitty sarcasm to the point of absurdity, then try to call you out for not "getting" a shitty half baked idea, a là reddit/r/shitredditsays
rayiner 13y ago
I don't disagree that your attitude is more productive, but telling people to ignore statistics and assume that they're a special snowflake would be considered unsound advice in any other context.

mseebach 13y ago

There is a big difference between considering prejudice and then assuming it in the face of a plausible, alternative explanation.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

kenjackson 13y ago
EDIT: Original post edited so making slight changes. Considering it is a federal crime to not hire based on race, most employers don't provide the information as to why they break this federal law so readily -- they just do it since it is hard to prove. So in summary... "Of course we discriminate. We have what we consider awesome reason to do so." I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to be Black and trying to get a job, and run across people like you who won't even give you a chance because they so clearly know how poor of an employee you'd be. Even worse they don't come out front and say it. Well maybe you could fly a confederate flag -- a not so subtle hint, but not an admission of guilt. But at least for your own comfort -- you're clearly not alone.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - kenjackson 13y ago
    Keeping quiet to protect this person who discriminates based on race is where you draw the line with your moral compass... You find no irony in this?
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
      - kenjackson 13y ago
        Someone burning out from hiring whites? I've never heard such a thing. I doubt that Google looks at its stack ranking and says, "Wow, we have a lot of white underperformers". That was one of my original points -- whites are almost never judged on the basis of race, whereas others are. You seem to be confirming that fact -- but trying to justify it. Race and gender are both protected groups, although treated differently. There are laws in place meant to stop the type of discrimination that you seem to want to justify. Contrived examples are not useful. Maybe we'll find out that Asians can cure cancer by touching people -- sure then I'd prefer they become oncologists. But in the real world what you do is test/interview for skills, and sometimes you'll see data that disproportionately over/under-represents a group. That is fine, and that is good to discuss. You'll often find that this bias is due to some other factor. Simply discriminating because your miniscule sample (and likely media/culturally induced bias) gives you a bias, is almost the canonical definition of racism. There was a time in my lifetime that Blacks were not considered smart enough to be quarterbacks. The data seemed to support it (when Doug Williams was drafted, there had been a total of 11 Black QBs in NFL history). In less than a generation we now have Blacks overrepresented in the NFL as QB (as compared to the population, not as compared to Blacks in the NFL). And another Black QB won the Super Bowl, largely viewed as one of the smartest players in the game. The good thing is that sports tends to really favor skills assessment over the long haul (the scoreboard is a pretty good reflection of quality). Except in the most exceptional cases, I'd suggest others do the same.

Crake 13y ago

>disadvantaged minorities always have to consider this. It's probably one of the biggest privileges that white males have in day to day life White males can be minorities, too.