3 ms·

Here's another interesting bit: Up until now it is still required by law that apartment buildings are built with a nuclear proof bunker underneath, including ai

Here's another interesting bit: Up until now it is still required by law that apartment buildings are built with a nuclear proof bunker underneath, including air filters. There are in fact more bunker places than people in Switzerland, i.e. >8M. These bunkers are mostly used as wine cellars and storage rooms now. Also, most of the soldiers take their rifle home and store it, even pass it to their sons. This thing is basically a sniper rifle nowadays, precise for 1300f without scope, 2000f with scope. But, see, the biggest effect this has is not in scaring off foreign powers (which hasn't been relevant since WW2), but on the people's mentality within the country. The government is seen as the people's employee. The guns at home, the banking secrecy and the direct democracy are in many ways instantiations of this thinking. Politicians wouldn't even think about trying to pass laws that are unpopular. With the tools given, a resistance movement would be very difficult to fight against - it's like a Sword of Damocles hanging over the country that has become so natural, no-one even thinks about it. On the other hand this situation has never materialized since the republic was founded 170 odd years ago, even though there are multiple minority ethnicities - the people's political power with the Referendum is enough to keep everyone content. Majority decisions are true majority decisions. This country is like a lab, showing that a democracy can be stable, prosperous and peaceful for a long time - if only other nations would recognize the lessons that could be learned from this.

hga 13y ago
A few quibbles based on what I've followed on guns and the military: Once the SIG SG 510 AKA Sturmgewehr 57 ("assault rifle" in English, but it's really a battle rifle, and at 12.5 pounds edging close to a machine rifle) was adopted in 1957, upon retirement from the reserves, instead of buying your bolt action rifle at a nominal cost, you'd turn yours in and could in return buy one converted to semi-auto. The new rifle, the SIG SG 550 AKA Sturmgewehr 90 introduced in 1990 is a true assault rifle, but if a [citation needed] bit in Wikipedia is correct, less than 700,000 were produced and "production for the military has now ceased." I've read elsewhere that a quality civilian version of this rifle costs around $3,000, although the cost in bulk buys would be lower (I personally own the closest one can get to this rifle in the US without going to extremes like switching the barrel for a longer one (I deal with the ballistic failures of 5.56x45mm NATO by using illegal for the military hollow point copper bullets from Barnes)). (In all cases these are reported to be very accurate rifles with issue ammo, drilling a target at 300 meters has always been an important requirement. Switzerland has in general been pioneering here, e.g. adopting non-corrosive primers in 1911, and lead free ones in 1990.) Somewhat over 600K sounds lower than the able bodied young-45 years of age cohort, and especially if military production has ceased it's pretty clear the system is changing. I'd also add that there's lots of evidence many in the Swiss establishment were concerned about an invasion by the Soviets post-WWII (e.g. http://www.amazon.com/Total-Resistance-H-Von-Dach/dp/0873640217 http://www.amazon.com/Total-Resistance-H-Von-Dach/dp/0873640... which is highly recommended), and as a child of the Cold War myself, over in the US, I don't think that concern was unwarranted. If the law is still requiring nuclear hardened bunkers, that's extremely wise, for we can be sure some day nuclear weapons will be used in anger again. Final note: Switzerland is instructive in the durability of true federal system, that with the breakdown of ours in the US with steadily increasing centralization of power in our central government, provides some useful object lessons.
- m_mueller 13y ago
  The army size is currently 185k including reservists and does indeed not include all able bodied men anymore - many choose to serve 360 days in civil service instead, as do I (however I've done my first ~150 days in the military before switching over). Most stay active in the army for about 8 years (150 days academy for regular soldiers, after that at 6 x 3 weeks repetition courses). In the 24 years since introduction of Sturmgewehr 90 I would expect 150k / 8 * 24 = 450k rifles. Pretty close, makes sense that they've seized production for now. Now, about the classification: I'm curious about this. Would you say, a rifle with only 20 rounds and the size / preciseness of the StGW 90 is an assault rifle? I think it's not so useful for that role - in fact the close combat troops use shortened versions.
  - hga 13y ago
    It follows the technical definition of "assault rifle". The category was defined by the Nazi StG 44: reduced power cartridge (compared to "full power" battle rifle cartridges like the 7.5 Swiss used previously, our .30-06 -> 7.62 NATO, Russia's 7.62x54 rimmed cartridge, etc.) and selective fire, full auto capable. It adopted innovations since then, like straight line recoil (also adopted by the Stwg 57) and 3 round burst mode for more controlled supressive fire. The size is a tricky question. Don't know about the interior ballistics of your Gw Pat 90 bullet, although Wikipedia says it's properly "designed for terminal ballistic instability". This is very important, because as discovered by Martin Fackler in the '80s, 5.56x45mm Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) ammo as fielded by the US is terrible at producing field disabling wounds unless, when it tumbles (as all bullets do when changing media from air to whatever), it ideally does so at a high enough velocity for it to break at the cannelure (the crimp in the jacket that helps hold everything together), and ideally the back portion then fragments. Otherwise it does little more than poke a pencil hole through a human, with a flip to exiting rear ended (which by itself, per Fackler's research, tends to do little damage, as does the high velocity shock waves), and of course this assumes bone isn't significantly hit etc. In practice, we, the US, have seen it isn't a very effective cartridge, and that's not a surprise given how it was forced on the US Army (an action which wasn't, BTW, inherently incorrect, for that part of the Army was very corrupt). The rule of thumb is that for every inch you chop off the barrel, you lose 50 yards/46 meters of effectiveness. So those who care about this, like the US Marines, still use 20 inch barrels, the M16 vs. the M4 carbine at 14.5 inches. And strangely enough, so follows the SG 55x models, per Wikipedia: SG 550: 528 mm (20.8 in) SG 551: 363 mm (14.3 in) SG 552 Commando: 226 mm (8.9 in) SG 553: 227 mm (8.9 in) And you're correct, if you're doing pure assault stuff, short range action, chopping the barrel to 551 or 552/3 length can get the job done. But as we've found in e.g. Afghanistan, 551/M4 length is disastrous if you have to "reach out and touch someone". And thanks for all the "on the ground" information you've provided about the current situation over there.

hga 13y ago

A few quibbles based on what I've followed on guns and the military: Once the SIG SG 510 AKA Sturmgewehr 57 ("assault rifle" in English, but it's really a battle rifle, and at 12.5 pounds edging close to a machine rifle) was adopted in 1957, upon retirement from the reserves, instead of buying your bolt action rifle at a nominal cost, you'd turn yours in and could in return buy one converted to semi-auto. The new rifle, the SIG SG 550 AKA Sturmgewehr 90 introduced in 1990 is a true assault rifle, but if a [citation needed] bit in Wikipedia is correct, less than 700,000 were produced and "production for the military has now ceased." I've read elsewhere that a quality civilian version of this rifle costs around $3,000, although the cost in bulk buys would be lower (I personally own the closest one can get to this rifle in the US without going to extremes like switching the barrel for a longer one (I deal with the ballistic failures of 5.56x45mm NATO by using illegal for the military hollow point copper bullets from Barnes)). (In all cases these are reported to be very accurate rifles with issue ammo, drilling a target at 300 meters has always been an important requirement. Switzerland has in general been pioneering here, e.g. adopting non-corrosive primers in 1911, and lead free ones in 1990.) Somewhat over 600K sounds lower than the able bodied young-45 years of age cohort, and especially if military production has ceased it's pretty clear the system is changing. I'd also add that there's lots of evidence many in the Swiss establishment were concerned about an invasion by the Soviets post-WWII (e.g. http://www.amazon.com/Total-Resistance-H-Von-Dach/dp/0873640217 http://www.amazon.com/Total-Resistance-H-Von-Dach/dp/0873640... which is highly recommended), and as a child of the Cold War myself, over in the US, I don't think that concern was unwarranted. If the law is still requiring nuclear hardened bunkers, that's extremely wise, for we can be sure some day nuclear weapons will be used in anger again. Final note: Switzerland is instructive in the durability of true federal system, that with the breakdown of ours in the US with steadily increasing centralization of power in our central government, provides some useful object lessons.

m_mueller 13y ago
The army size is currently 185k including reservists and does indeed not include all able bodied men anymore - many choose to serve 360 days in civil service instead, as do I (however I've done my first ~150 days in the military before switching over). Most stay active in the army for about 8 years (150 days academy for regular soldiers, after that at 6 x 3 weeks repetition courses). In the 24 years since introduction of Sturmgewehr 90 I would expect 150k / 8 * 24 = 450k rifles. Pretty close, makes sense that they've seized production for now. Now, about the classification: I'm curious about this. Would you say, a rifle with only 20 rounds and the size / preciseness of the StGW 90 is an assault rifle? I think it's not so useful for that role - in fact the close combat troops use shortened versions.
- hga 13y ago
  It follows the technical definition of "assault rifle". The category was defined by the Nazi StG 44: reduced power cartridge (compared to "full power" battle rifle cartridges like the 7.5 Swiss used previously, our .30-06 -> 7.62 NATO, Russia's 7.62x54 rimmed cartridge, etc.) and selective fire, full auto capable. It adopted innovations since then, like straight line recoil (also adopted by the Stwg 57) and 3 round burst mode for more controlled supressive fire. The size is a tricky question. Don't know about the interior ballistics of your Gw Pat 90 bullet, although Wikipedia says it's properly "designed for terminal ballistic instability". This is very important, because as discovered by Martin Fackler in the '80s, 5.56x45mm Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) ammo as fielded by the US is terrible at producing field disabling wounds unless, when it tumbles (as all bullets do when changing media from air to whatever), it ideally does so at a high enough velocity for it to break at the cannelure (the crimp in the jacket that helps hold everything together), and ideally the back portion then fragments. Otherwise it does little more than poke a pencil hole through a human, with a flip to exiting rear ended (which by itself, per Fackler's research, tends to do little damage, as does the high velocity shock waves), and of course this assumes bone isn't significantly hit etc. In practice, we, the US, have seen it isn't a very effective cartridge, and that's not a surprise given how it was forced on the US Army (an action which wasn't, BTW, inherently incorrect, for that part of the Army was very corrupt). The rule of thumb is that for every inch you chop off the barrel, you lose 50 yards/46 meters of effectiveness. So those who care about this, like the US Marines, still use 20 inch barrels, the M16 vs. the M4 carbine at 14.5 inches. And strangely enough, so follows the SG 55x models, per Wikipedia: SG 550: 528 mm (20.8 in) SG 551: 363 mm (14.3 in) SG 552 Commando: 226 mm (8.9 in) SG 553: 227 mm (8.9 in) And you're correct, if you're doing pure assault stuff, short range action, chopping the barrel to 551 or 552/3 length can get the job done. But as we've found in e.g. Afghanistan, 551/M4 length is disastrous if you have to "reach out and touch someone". And thanks for all the "on the ground" information you've provided about the current situation over there.