4 ms·

Great news, though I guess politicians will find loop holes in this decision that will let them do it anways, albeit slightly differently. I also wonder if thi

by eis 13y ago

Great news, though I guess politicians will find loop holes in this decision that will let them do it anways, albeit slightly differently. I also wonder if this could have implications on drag net data collections by intelligence agencies.

xmpir 13y ago
By now the ISPs/Telcos had to save the data. When the directive came into action the ISPs/Telcos protested as they had additional costs nobody covered. So loop holes will not help if the data is not stored in the first place.
- Maakuth 13y ago
  Unless there's some sort of "full feed copy" wiretap forwarding everything to a spy agency. Isn't this the way it's done in case of NSA and GCHQ, not by stealing archived traffic data off telecom servers?
  - xmpir 13y ago
    Are there any leaks about European (except UK-GCHQ) governments spying on their citizens? By now they did not have to because it was done by the ISPs anyway.
    - agapos 13y ago
      Not all of these about 'self-spying', but it is sure as hell they got some tips on their own people from the US. http://www.globalresearch.ca/swedish-intelligence-service-spying-on-russia-for-us-national-security-agency/5362967 http://www.globalresearch.ca/swedish-intelligence-service-sp... http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/11/french-officials-internet-users-real-time-law http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/11/french-official... http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/30/spain-colluded-nsa-spying-citizens-spanish-el-mundo-us http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/30/spain-colluded-... http://cphpost.dk/news/snowden-leak-confirms-denmark-spying-deal-with-us.8185.html http://cphpost.dk/news/snowden-leak-confirms-denmark-spying-... http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intelligence-agencies-used-nsa-spying-program-a-912173.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intellige... http://voiceofrussia.com/2013_11_20/Norwegian-surveillance-scandal-hardly-surprising-expert-4554/ http://voiceofrussia.com/2013_11_20/Norwegian-surveillance-s... http://www.wikileaks-forum.com/impact-of-the-leaks/334/sweden-a-close-partner-in-nsa-surveillance/22686/ http://www.wikileaks-forum.com/impact-of-the-leaks/334/swede...
    - frik 13y ago
      as of yesterday, add Austria to the list: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7552356 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7552356
  - tripzilch 13y ago
    If the ISPs already complained about extra costs, I wonder if most EU national secret agencies could pull it off on their own. Even if they had direct access, the infrastructure for the storage and querying of all (header) data of all the ISPs. They don't all have billion dollar budgets like the NSA+GHCQ (which is the main reason I think it's fair to be infuriated with people that are okay with the global privacy breaches as long as it's not US citizens because "the secret agency in my country is doing just the same"--except they're not, they'd love to[0], but they don't have the resources to pull it off on the frankly insane and megalomaniac scale as NSA+GHCQ do). That's the benefit of decentralizing, I guess. [0] for the Dutch-reading HNers, in case you thought our AIVD are really basically just nice guys, check Louis Seveke's story http://www.vn.nl/Standaard-Media-Pagina/Louis-Seveke-kwelgeest-van-de-geheime-dienst.htm http://www.vn.nl/Standaard-Media-Pagina/Louis-Seveke-kwelgee... (and no Seveke was absolutely no saint either, but they went too far and back in those days you had to physically tail someone, so at least it didn't scale very well)
rossng 13y ago
Most likely the individual countries will keep doing it - even if EU may no longer require them to.
- kitd 13y ago
  Yes, exactly. Sadly, it has come to the point where I can't even imagine the UK government willingly give up this option.
- JackpotDen 13y ago
  This is a worry. At least some decent decisions are being made. Does this stop forcing the ISP/telecoms from monitoring, or can they still monitor if they want?
- eis 13y ago
  Can they do this though? It would be against EU law after all.
  - malka 13y ago
    Some countries (such as France) shit on EU laws and prefer to pay fines with the citizen taxes. Yay.
    - digitalengineer 13y ago
      Same here in Holland. We have an extra tax (called BPM) on all new cars. It is so high (25K on a BMW X5) we are fined by the EU every year. But it is so profitable our government pays the fine smiling.
      - koyote 13y ago
        Probably paying the fine using the BPM; thus going in a full circle.
  - SEMW 13y ago
    Nah. The CFREU (Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU) is binding on EU bodies, and national bodies only when they are implementing EU law. It doesn't directly bind other things national bodies do. That's the job of the ECHR (European Convention on Human Rights), which is not part of the EU. The CJEU ruling relies on proportionality and the competence of the EU to legislate what it did. We're not about to get a ruling from the ECtHR that keeping telecoms data for two years violates the ECHR. tldr: (!mandatory) =/=> (illegal)
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

by eis 13y ago

xmpir 13y ago

By now the ISPs/Telcos had to save the data. When the directive came into action the ISPs/Telcos protested as they had additional costs nobody covered. So loop holes will not help if the data is not stored in the first place.

Maakuth 13y ago
Unless there's some sort of "full feed copy" wiretap forwarding everything to a spy agency. Isn't this the way it's done in case of NSA and GCHQ, not by stealing archived traffic data off telecom servers?
- xmpir 13y ago
  Are there any leaks about European (except UK-GCHQ) governments spying on their citizens? By now they did not have to because it was done by the ISPs anyway.
  - agapos 13y ago
    Not all of these about 'self-spying', but it is sure as hell they got some tips on their own people from the US. http://www.globalresearch.ca/swedish-intelligence-service-spying-on-russia-for-us-national-security-agency/5362967 http://www.globalresearch.ca/swedish-intelligence-service-sp... http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/11/french-officials-internet-users-real-time-law http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/11/french-official... http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/30/spain-colluded-nsa-spying-citizens-spanish-el-mundo-us http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/30/spain-colluded-... http://cphpost.dk/news/snowden-leak-confirms-denmark-spying-deal-with-us.8185.html http://cphpost.dk/news/snowden-leak-confirms-denmark-spying-... http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intelligence-agencies-used-nsa-spying-program-a-912173.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intellige... http://voiceofrussia.com/2013_11_20/Norwegian-surveillance-scandal-hardly-surprising-expert-4554/ http://voiceofrussia.com/2013_11_20/Norwegian-surveillance-s... http://www.wikileaks-forum.com/impact-of-the-leaks/334/sweden-a-close-partner-in-nsa-surveillance/22686/ http://www.wikileaks-forum.com/impact-of-the-leaks/334/swede...
  - frik 13y ago
    as of yesterday, add Austria to the list: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7552356 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7552356
- tripzilch 13y ago
  If the ISPs already complained about extra costs, I wonder if most EU national secret agencies could pull it off on their own. Even if they had direct access, the infrastructure for the storage and querying of all (header) data of all the ISPs. They don't all have billion dollar budgets like the NSA+GHCQ (which is the main reason I think it's fair to be infuriated with people that are okay with the global privacy breaches as long as it's not US citizens because "the secret agency in my country is doing just the same"--except they're not, they'd love to[0], but they don't have the resources to pull it off on the frankly insane and megalomaniac scale as NSA+GHCQ do). That's the benefit of decentralizing, I guess. [0] for the Dutch-reading HNers, in case you thought our AIVD are really basically just nice guys, check Louis Seveke's story http://www.vn.nl/Standaard-Media-Pagina/Louis-Seveke-kwelgeest-van-de-geheime-dienst.htm http://www.vn.nl/Standaard-Media-Pagina/Louis-Seveke-kwelgee... (and no Seveke was absolutely no saint either, but they went too far and back in those days you had to physically tail someone, so at least it didn't scale very well)

rossng 13y ago

Most likely the individual countries will keep doing it - even if EU may no longer require them to.

kitd 13y ago
Yes, exactly. Sadly, it has come to the point where I can't even imagine the UK government willingly give up this option.
JackpotDen 13y ago
This is a worry. At least some decent decisions are being made. Does this stop forcing the ISP/telecoms from monitoring, or can they still monitor if they want?
eis 13y ago
Can they do this though? It would be against EU law after all.
- malka 13y ago
  Some countries (such as France) shit on EU laws and prefer to pay fines with the citizen taxes. Yay.
  - digitalengineer 13y ago
    Same here in Holland. We have an extra tax (called BPM) on all new cars. It is so high (25K on a BMW X5) we are fined by the EU every year. But it is so profitable our government pays the fine smiling.
    - koyote 13y ago
      Probably paying the fine using the BPM; thus going in a full circle.
- SEMW 13y ago
  Nah. The CFREU (Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU) is binding on EU bodies, and national bodies only when they are implementing EU law. It doesn't directly bind other things national bodies do. That's the job of the ECHR (European Convention on Human Rights), which is not part of the EU. The CJEU ruling relies on proportionality and the competence of the EU to legislate what it did. We're not about to get a ruling from the ECtHR that keeping telecoms data for two years violates the ECHR. tldr: (!mandatory) =/=> (illegal)

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]