6 ms·

If Jesus Never Called Himself God, How Did He Become One?

17 points by ValentineC 13y ago

danieltillett 13y ago
Wasn't it decided by committee like all important decisions [0]. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
- JacobSkyler 13y ago
  No, the link you provided tells you what Nicaea was about. It standardised the method for calculating Easter and condemned Arianism. (Arianism denied the trinity, not Jesus's divinity.)
shmerl 13y ago
According to Jewish sources it's rather simple. He was made into one by his followers, primarily Paul (Shaul) in order to advance Christianity. Author's conclusion in the end is pretty much the same.
jrs99 13y ago
that's a question that many people, such as isaac newton, were obsessed with. to newton, it was a total fraud. It's very possible that sometime after Jesus reached puberty, God decided that he was the same thing as Jesus.
cup 13y ago
>If Jesus had not been declared God by his followers, his followers would've remained a sect within Judaism — a small Jewish sect, and if that was the case it would not have attracted a large number of gentiles. It's interesting he raises that point because in Islam Jesus is considered a prophet and explicitly not God and in doing so tries to establish the argument that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all the same religion from the same source but that the differences are a result of changes (human error or addition) over time. Hence, while being the most recent of the monotheistic religions, Muslims argue that its a return to the 'original' religion of Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc.
- azth 13y ago
  Islam maintains that it is the religion of all the messengers (read: Submission). Abraham, Moses, and Jesus were all Muslims (Submitters). On a side note, there exists at least one sect of Christianity that does not believe in Jesus as God.
  - JacobSkyler 13y ago
    In Muhammad's time there were quite a few sects that denied Jesus was God. He would have been familiar with the concept before he started getting revelations. It's interesting to note that Muhammad also taught that a lot of other historical figures were prophets too, e.g. Alexander the Great.
    - azth 13y ago
      > e.g. Alexander the Great. Citation needed. This is a fallacy that has been spread unfortunately.
      - JacobSkyler 13y ago
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great_in_the_Quran http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great_in_the_Qura...
        azth 13y ago
        I have come across that page before. Unfortunately it is full of false information (I researched it). For instance, the Alexander romance incidents that match the Quran were actually copied from the Quran, not the other way around. Furthermore, note that even what is mentioned on that page is speculation from certain Islamic scholars. There is absolutely no authentic Hadith (or even non-authentic as far as I know) that mentions Alexander by name. All that is mentioned in the Quran is the "Two-Horned One", which could be Cyrus as mentioned on the wikipedia page, or it could be someone else completely. One last point, the person in question here was never declared to be a prophet in the Quran as you claimed, but just a righteous king and person.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
o0-0o 13y ago
The OP question from the NPR article is a logical fallacy. The story is that there is only one God, and Jesus is the son.
callmeed 13y ago
Weird that JC in on HN. Completely odd premise to me. I wasn't aware people discounted the gospel of John when considering this. Here are some of basics as I understand them (as a christian): * OT prophecies refer to Jesus as "God with us" and "mighty God" [1][2] * He said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me ..." [3] * He said "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also." [3] * He said "I and the Father are one." and immediately afterwards, jews attempted to stone him, citing "because you, being a man, make yourself God." [4] [1] http://www.esvbible.org/Isaiah+7/ http://www.esvbible.org/Isaiah+7/ (verse 14) [2] http://www.esvbible.org/Isaiah+9/ http://www.esvbible.org/Isaiah+9/ (verse 6) [3] http://www.esvbible.org/John+14/ http://www.esvbible.org/John+14/ (verse 11, 7) [4] http://www.esvbible.org/John+10/ http://www.esvbible.org/John+10/ (verse 29-33) Note: no desire to debate these points (too busy atm). Just wanted to point out where some get their stance on the topic.
- BetterLateThan 13y ago
  Matthew 19:17 - "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God".
- Ryanmf 13y ago
  I don't know about 'discounting' but John wasn't composed until well after virtually anyone who might have encountered Jesus personally was already dead, near the end of the first century AD. Not exactly the type of source that can be relied upon for accurate, direct quotes.

17 points by ValentineC 13y ago

Wasn't it decided by committee like all important decisions [0]. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

JacobSkyler 13y ago
No, the link you provided tells you what Nicaea was about. It standardised the method for calculating Easter and condemned Arianism. (Arianism denied the trinity, not Jesus's divinity.)

shmerl 13y ago

According to Jewish sources it's rather simple. He was made into one by his followers, primarily Paul (Shaul) in order to advance Christianity. Author's conclusion in the end is pretty much the same.

jrs99 13y ago

that's a question that many people, such as isaac newton, were obsessed with. to newton, it was a total fraud. It's very possible that sometime after Jesus reached puberty, God decided that he was the same thing as Jesus.

cup 13y ago

>If Jesus had not been declared God by his followers, his followers would've remained a sect within Judaism — a small Jewish sect, and if that was the case it would not have attracted a large number of gentiles. It's interesting he raises that point because in Islam Jesus is considered a prophet and explicitly not God and in doing so tries to establish the argument that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all the same religion from the same source but that the differences are a result of changes (human error or addition) over time. Hence, while being the most recent of the monotheistic religions, Muslims argue that its a return to the 'original' religion of Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc.

azth 13y ago
Islam maintains that it is the religion of all the messengers (read: Submission). Abraham, Moses, and Jesus were all Muslims (Submitters). On a side note, there exists at least one sect of Christianity that does not believe in Jesus as God.
- JacobSkyler 13y ago
  In Muhammad's time there were quite a few sects that denied Jesus was God. He would have been familiar with the concept before he started getting revelations. It's interesting to note that Muhammad also taught that a lot of other historical figures were prophets too, e.g. Alexander the Great.
  - azth 13y ago
    > e.g. Alexander the Great. Citation needed. This is a fallacy that has been spread unfortunately.
    - JacobSkyler 13y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great_in_the_Quran http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great_in_the_Qura...
      - azth 13y ago
        I have come across that page before. Unfortunately it is full of false information (I researched it). For instance, the Alexander romance incidents that match the Quran were actually copied from the Quran, not the other way around. Furthermore, note that even what is mentioned on that page is speculation from certain Islamic scholars. There is absolutely no authentic Hadith (or even non-authentic as far as I know) that mentions Alexander by name. All that is mentioned in the Quran is the "Two-Horned One", which could be Cyrus as mentioned on the wikipedia page, or it could be someone else completely. One last point, the person in question here was never declared to be a prophet in the Quran as you claimed, but just a righteous king and person.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

o0-0o 13y ago

The OP question from the NPR article is a logical fallacy. The story is that there is only one God, and Jesus is the son.

callmeed 13y ago

Weird that JC in on HN. Completely odd premise to me. I wasn't aware people discounted the gospel of John when considering this. Here are some of basics as I understand them (as a christian): * OT prophecies refer to Jesus as "God with us" and "mighty God" [1][2] * He said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me ..." [3] * He said "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also." [3] * He said "I and the Father are one." and immediately afterwards, jews attempted to stone him, citing "because you, being a man, make yourself God." [4] [1] http://www.esvbible.org/Isaiah+7/ http://www.esvbible.org/Isaiah+7/ (verse 14) [2] http://www.esvbible.org/Isaiah+9/ http://www.esvbible.org/Isaiah+9/ (verse 6) [3] http://www.esvbible.org/John+14/ http://www.esvbible.org/John+14/ (verse 11, 7) [4] http://www.esvbible.org/John+10/ http://www.esvbible.org/John+10/ (verse 29-33) Note: no desire to debate these points (too busy atm). Just wanted to point out where some get their stance on the topic.

BetterLateThan 13y ago
Matthew 19:17 - "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God".
Ryanmf 13y ago
I don't know about 'discounting' but John wasn't composed until well after virtually anyone who might have encountered Jesus personally was already dead, near the end of the first century AD. Not exactly the type of source that can be relied upon for accurate, direct quotes.