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I am in USA on H1B. A lot of American problems seem to be around the thinking that there is some kind "fixed" number of jobs, misery, poverty, disease etc. A

by tn13 13y ago

I am in USA on H1B. A lot of American problems seem to be around the thinking that there is some kind "fixed" number of jobs, misery, poverty, disease etc. A lot of welfare systems here seems to assume that there is a fixed number of single mothers, disabled etc. without acknowledging the fact that the more incentives you give to them more people will try to get into that category. For example more dole you give to disabled I would assume more people would try to get themselves into disabled bucket than in healthy. Similarly the H1B cap seems to have an assumption that there are some fixed number of STEM jobs out there and if Indians fill it up, somehow the Americans will not get it. I would assume a higher concentration of Engineers in USA would only lead to more innovation, more engineers trying to earn more money by being far more creative and so on. In India a typical outsourcing giant pays somewhere between $5K to $10k per year to new engineers. The only way I could break such low pay was by getting a master degree, being an excellent coder and joining a more tech focused company in Silicon Valley. After reaching Silicon Valley I realized the tech giant I was working for did not pay me enough. So I changed the job and joined a start-up which eventually did far well making me richer. Also the Democrats which beat their chest in the name of poor are actually those who treat poor the way a Dog treats a lampost. The lampost helps the Dog navigates but only after it is soaked in his pee. More engineers would mean cheaper engineering services which means more money saved for rest of the non-engineering Americans which a overwhelmingly high population. By putting an artificial cap on H1B American government is forcing the poor American citizens shell out more money.

geekam 13y ago
There is another important point of outsourcing. If there is more competition here, in the US, then chances of outsourcing to India, China (where pay is substantially low) will also reduce. That might mean more jobs here, in the US. Take Cognizant Technology solutions for example. I know a friend who works for the company. They are a US company (NJ based) but the majority of their life-sciences projects are outsourced to India office. They pay my friend one-thirds of what they charge the client for him in the contract. Him and about 5 other people who work here for the client, send work off-shore to India office to about 50 people. This model of outsourcing the majority work to India suits the client because the total costs about one-tenth of what they'd actually pay if everyone of those employees was hired here, in the US. Not only is this model hurting jobs in the US, it is bad for the employees here well. For my friend, he has to work during the day, and then spend most of the night delegating tasks off-shore. He practically sleeps only over the weekend. This might be a one-off example with this specific client only for Cognizant but I am aware that the profits from pay-scales are company-wide.
BenefitOfDoubt 13y ago
>Similarly the H1B cap seems to have an assumption that there are some fixed number of STEM jobs out there and if Indians fill it up, somehow the Americans will not get it. I would assume a higher concentration of Engineers in USA would only lead to more innovation, more engineers trying to earn more money by being far more creative and so on. So you are assuming the opposite? There are unlimited STEM jobs here? You are quite misinformed. In the United States, nine percent of computer science graduates are unemployed, and 14.7 percent of those who hold degrees in information systems have no job. Graduates with degrees in STEM - science, technology, engineering and medicine - are facing record joblessness, with unemployment at more than twice pre-recession levels. The job market for law degree holders continues to erode, with only 55 percent of 2011 law graduates in full-time jobs. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/11/surviving-post-employment-economy-201311373243740811.html http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/11/surviving-p...
- tn13 13y ago
  Opposite of fixed is `not fixed` instead of unlimited. I never said America has unlimited jobs but the number of jobs would depend on too many factors. Someone has a degree does not mean the person is productive enough to get an actual full time job. Also government's protectionist mechanisms only hurt these people. Assume that for any job there is a productivity level required X. For some value X=N, it is profitable to simply outsource that job to India. For all values X>N it is affordable to hire a person in US, also there is a strong demand for people X>N. Under these conditions all the American citizens who have a degree but with productivity level <=N they have no choice but to to something to raise it to a certain extent in order to get employed or learn to make Tacos. If the government comes up with more rationalized H1B limit then many companies would prefer to simply give H1Bs to cheap labor from India. Yes, true thousands of half educated people from India would flock to America, but at the same time this will lead to more x<N jobs in US for which even Americans can compete. A lot of those unemployed graduates would then have a better shot at getting employed.
  - BenefitOfDoubt 13y ago
    >Someone has a degree does not mean the person is productive enough to get an actual full time job. So your assumption is that large portions of people who put in all the effort to achieve a STEM degree cannot be productive enough even to even get/hold a job in that same field? That is a big assumption, and pretty unfounded. It if far more realistic to suggest that American companies cannot afford to hire domestic workers or hold out to maximize their dollar by bringing in immigrants or off-shoring. I think that the picture of immigrants being in such high demand because the amount allowed in is sucked up quickly creates a false picture. It is not that we don't have the workers here, it is that cheaper and more loyal workers can be had which can do the same job at a usually more productive rate (Visa workers are more productive because they are constantly busting ass trying not to get fired/deported). Think about it, if you were willing to move half way around the world to get a job, don't you think you'd have extra motivation over a locally raised guy who is picking and choosing between potential employers. We cannot perpetually import workers, this would only leave a larger and larger pool of educated, skilled, unemployed (or not employed in a skilled field) locals. How is this good? >Yes, true thousands of half educated people from India would flock to America, but at the same time this will lead to more x<N jobs in US for which even Americans can compete. A lot of those unemployed graduates would then have a better shot at getting employed. So your logic is that bringing in more half educated people from India would provide more X<N jobs? We already have an abundance of half educated people both born here and from Mexico (many of which are unemployed). I don't see how adding more to this group is going to improve anything. Educated people don't want and often refuse to take X<N jobs. The corporations took the immigrants over them and now they just leech off of the government. All so that corporations can increase their bottom line.

by tn13 13y ago

geekam 13y ago

There is another important point of outsourcing. If there is more competition here, in the US, then chances of outsourcing to India, China (where pay is substantially low) will also reduce. That might mean more jobs here, in the US. Take Cognizant Technology solutions for example. I know a friend who works for the company. They are a US company (NJ based) but the majority of their life-sciences projects are outsourced to India office. They pay my friend one-thirds of what they charge the client for him in the contract. Him and about 5 other people who work here for the client, send work off-shore to India office to about 50 people. This model of outsourcing the majority work to India suits the client because the total costs about one-tenth of what they'd actually pay if everyone of those employees was hired here, in the US. Not only is this model hurting jobs in the US, it is bad for the employees here well. For my friend, he has to work during the day, and then spend most of the night delegating tasks off-shore. He practically sleeps only over the weekend. This might be a one-off example with this specific client only for Cognizant but I am aware that the profits from pay-scales are company-wide.

BenefitOfDoubt 13y ago

>Similarly the H1B cap seems to have an assumption that there are some fixed number of STEM jobs out there and if Indians fill it up, somehow the Americans will not get it. I would assume a higher concentration of Engineers in USA would only lead to more innovation, more engineers trying to earn more money by being far more creative and so on. So you are assuming the opposite? There are unlimited STEM jobs here? You are quite misinformed. In the United States, nine percent of computer science graduates are unemployed, and 14.7 percent of those who hold degrees in information systems have no job. Graduates with degrees in STEM - science, technology, engineering and medicine - are facing record joblessness, with unemployment at more than twice pre-recession levels. The job market for law degree holders continues to erode, with only 55 percent of 2011 law graduates in full-time jobs. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/11/surviving-post-employment-economy-201311373243740811.html http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/11/surviving-p...

tn13 13y ago
Opposite of fixed is `not fixed` instead of unlimited. I never said America has unlimited jobs but the number of jobs would depend on too many factors. Someone has a degree does not mean the person is productive enough to get an actual full time job. Also government's protectionist mechanisms only hurt these people. Assume that for any job there is a productivity level required X. For some value X=N, it is profitable to simply outsource that job to India. For all values X>N it is affordable to hire a person in US, also there is a strong demand for people X>N. Under these conditions all the American citizens who have a degree but with productivity level <=N they have no choice but to to something to raise it to a certain extent in order to get employed or learn to make Tacos. If the government comes up with more rationalized H1B limit then many companies would prefer to simply give H1Bs to cheap labor from India. Yes, true thousands of half educated people from India would flock to America, but at the same time this will lead to more x<N jobs in US for which even Americans can compete. A lot of those unemployed graduates would then have a better shot at getting employed.
- BenefitOfDoubt 13y ago
  >Someone has a degree does not mean the person is productive enough to get an actual full time job. So your assumption is that large portions of people who put in all the effort to achieve a STEM degree cannot be productive enough even to even get/hold a job in that same field? That is a big assumption, and pretty unfounded. It if far more realistic to suggest that American companies cannot afford to hire domestic workers or hold out to maximize their dollar by bringing in immigrants or off-shoring. I think that the picture of immigrants being in such high demand because the amount allowed in is sucked up quickly creates a false picture. It is not that we don't have the workers here, it is that cheaper and more loyal workers can be had which can do the same job at a usually more productive rate (Visa workers are more productive because they are constantly busting ass trying not to get fired/deported). Think about it, if you were willing to move half way around the world to get a job, don't you think you'd have extra motivation over a locally raised guy who is picking and choosing between potential employers. We cannot perpetually import workers, this would only leave a larger and larger pool of educated, skilled, unemployed (or not employed in a skilled field) locals. How is this good? >Yes, true thousands of half educated people from India would flock to America, but at the same time this will lead to more x<N jobs in US for which even Americans can compete. A lot of those unemployed graduates would then have a better shot at getting employed. So your logic is that bringing in more half educated people from India would provide more X<N jobs? We already have an abundance of half educated people both born here and from Mexico (many of which are unemployed). I don't see how adding more to this group is going to improve anything. Educated people don't want and often refuse to take X<N jobs. The corporations took the immigrants over them and now they just leech off of the government. All so that corporations can increase their bottom line.