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Explanation and analysis of the idea of a 'post-employment economy', i.e. increasing corporate profits and decreasing employment, is given in 'The Lights in the

by jal278 13y ago

Explanation and analysis of the idea of a 'post-employment economy', i.e. increasing corporate profits and decreasing employment, is given in 'The Lights in the Tunnel' by Martin Ford (which I found to be a good read, although a little verbose). The main argument is that cheap computerized automation is displacing human workers, and corporate incentives are such that the trend is likely to continue. The long-term problem is that if systemic unemployment grows then the economy as a whole starts to flag b/c consumers no longer have the funds to drive the consumer economy. His solution is rethinking corporate tax (reducing/eliminating pay-roll taxes which discentivize hiring, and potentially increasing corporate revenue tax). If displacement becomes extreme, he suggests that corporate taxes could fund a basic income for displaced workers to prop up the consumer economy.

evunveot 13y ago
I'm extremely pessimistic about any proposed solution that involves politics (changes to the tax code, basic income, etc), especially in the US. The populace at large doesn't have the interest or imagination to consider changing the game like that, and there's too much money mixed into the political system and the mass media to allow game changing ideas to enter the mainstream. (When I say "the game" I mean the political and economic system we've accreted, with its associated ideas about things like property and ownership.) The only path out of this situation that I've ever been able to imagine that doesn't involve a swift, massive shift in popular consciousness is a gradual transition to worker control of capital. In other words, entrepreneurs found and grow worker cooperatives (a la Mondragon Corporation) that provide their services and/or goods preferentially to other cooperatives. The pieces are out there to start doing this. There aren't any real legal obstacles to growing a new system inside the one we have now. For example, you can find pre-written C-corp bylaws online that spell out how a worker co-op functions and the ways it's protected from co-option by non-cooperative entities. It's just a matter of convincing individual entrepreneurs that it's not only a viable option but actually a socially positive (perhaps even necessary, in the long term) thing to do. That's understandably a hard sell in the modern startup world where seemingly everyone is dreaming of astronomical wealth and willing to sacrifice every aspect of their life in its pursuit, but it should be easier to change a few key minds one at a time than to convince greater than 50% of the voting public that drastic changes need to be made.
- jal278 13y ago
  I agree that currently the populace at large might not understand what is going on, but if structural employment continues to grow, then I think the nature of the problem will become more clear. In the limit, if the percentage of displaced workers becomes sufficiently large (>50%), then something like basic income seems to become politically tractable. I do like the idea of worker cooperatives and do not know enough about them to understand if they are a realistic or preferable option to changing governmental policy. Do you have any good references related to the idea of cooperatives giving preferential treatment to other cooperatives?
  - evunveot 13y ago
    In general, the idea comes out of the Rochdale Principles [1], which most co-ops use as a sort of guide. The specific idea of giving preferential treatment to other cooperatives as clients/customers -- I don't know, that may have just popped into my head. But it seems like good strategy. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_Principles#Cooperation_among_cooperatives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_Principles#Cooperatio...
  - evunveot 13y ago
    By the way, here [1] is a very good resource on cooperatives in general. Don't be put off by the title (The Cooperative Solution: How the United States can tame recessions, reduce inequality, and protect the environment) -- it's primarily history along with a survey of the cooperative economy circa 2012. [1] http://www.thecooperativefoundation.org/images/Cooperative_Solution_6x9-h_copy.pdf http://www.thecooperativefoundation.org/images/Cooperative_S... (PDF; 136 pages)
- mantas 13y ago
  I don't see how this would solve the issue. The main problem is that we got too efficient. We make too many goods per capita. There's no enough work to employ everybody Transitioning to cooperatives wouldn't fix that - we'd still have overproduction that would limit number of cooperatives and how many people they employ. More equal distribution of wealth may increase consumption a weee bit. But the core problem wouldn't go away.

by jal278 13y ago

evunveot 13y ago

I'm extremely pessimistic about any proposed solution that involves politics (changes to the tax code, basic income, etc), especially in the US. The populace at large doesn't have the interest or imagination to consider changing the game like that, and there's too much money mixed into the political system and the mass media to allow game changing ideas to enter the mainstream. (When I say "the game" I mean the political and economic system we've accreted, with its associated ideas about things like property and ownership.) The only path out of this situation that I've ever been able to imagine that doesn't involve a swift, massive shift in popular consciousness is a gradual transition to worker control of capital. In other words, entrepreneurs found and grow worker cooperatives (a la Mondragon Corporation) that provide their services and/or goods preferentially to other cooperatives. The pieces are out there to start doing this. There aren't any real legal obstacles to growing a new system inside the one we have now. For example, you can find pre-written C-corp bylaws online that spell out how a worker co-op functions and the ways it's protected from co-option by non-cooperative entities. It's just a matter of convincing individual entrepreneurs that it's not only a viable option but actually a socially positive (perhaps even necessary, in the long term) thing to do. That's understandably a hard sell in the modern startup world where seemingly everyone is dreaming of astronomical wealth and willing to sacrifice every aspect of their life in its pursuit, but it should be easier to change a few key minds one at a time than to convince greater than 50% of the voting public that drastic changes need to be made.

jal278 13y ago
I agree that currently the populace at large might not understand what is going on, but if structural employment continues to grow, then I think the nature of the problem will become more clear. In the limit, if the percentage of displaced workers becomes sufficiently large (>50%), then something like basic income seems to become politically tractable. I do like the idea of worker cooperatives and do not know enough about them to understand if they are a realistic or preferable option to changing governmental policy. Do you have any good references related to the idea of cooperatives giving preferential treatment to other cooperatives?
- evunveot 13y ago
  In general, the idea comes out of the Rochdale Principles [1], which most co-ops use as a sort of guide. The specific idea of giving preferential treatment to other cooperatives as clients/customers -- I don't know, that may have just popped into my head. But it seems like good strategy. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_Principles#Cooperation_among_cooperatives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_Principles#Cooperatio...
- evunveot 13y ago
  By the way, here [1] is a very good resource on cooperatives in general. Don't be put off by the title (The Cooperative Solution: How the United States can tame recessions, reduce inequality, and protect the environment) -- it's primarily history along with a survey of the cooperative economy circa 2012. [1] http://www.thecooperativefoundation.org/images/Cooperative_Solution_6x9-h_copy.pdf http://www.thecooperativefoundation.org/images/Cooperative_S... (PDF; 136 pages)
mantas 13y ago
I don't see how this would solve the issue. The main problem is that we got too efficient. We make too many goods per capita. There's no enough work to employ everybody Transitioning to cooperatives wouldn't fix that - we'd still have overproduction that would limit number of cooperatives and how many people they employ. More equal distribution of wealth may increase consumption a weee bit. But the core problem wouldn't go away.