11 ms·
The money quote from the article: > "They thought it was OK to rent out on Airbnb because the company didn't tell them otherwise. Airbnb should be defending th
by chollida1 13y ago
The money quote from the article:
> "They thought it was OK to rent out on Airbnb because the company didn't tell them otherwise. Airbnb should be defending these tenants, or they should disclose to every person who rents in San Francisco that (short-term rentals are illegal) and tenants are being evicted."
This is interesting. If it is indeed illegal for any renter to use air bnb in San Francisco, then it seems logical to me that AirBnb should at the very least make the person renting out a place check a box that very clearly says
1) they own their own place
2) they have checked with their building, if its a condo or shared building, to ensure that its legal for them to rent out their place.
- gpapilion 13y agoThe tenant signed a lease, and should be aware of the clauses within it. Usually leases forbid subletting w/o the landlords approval.
- toufka 13y agoAt least in this case, it appears to be a law that is being violated, rather than a clause in a lease. The clause in the lease that is getting people evicted states, "any illegal activity". So just reading your lease is insufficient to determine whether or not one could rent a room. Further, from the article: "San Francisco bans all residential rentals of less than 30 days unless the hosts have a conditional use permit - an expensive and cumbersome process that virtually everyone ignores. The ban applies whether the hosts own or rent, paying guests visit frequently or once a year, or hosts rent out a room or an entire dwelling." So at least in SF - anyone using AirBNB at all is breaking the law, irrespective of one's lease or ownership status.
- baddox 13y agoThere still is (at least to me) a difference between specific illegal activity involving housing laws and simply any illegal activity in the apartment. Can you get evicted for, say, lying on your taxes from your apartment?
- eloisant 13y agoThe point here is "using the apartment for an illegal activity".
- baddox 13y agoThat's what I mean. I've heard of people getting evicted for drug offenses conducted from the apartment, but not for lying on taxes from the apartment.
- Mindless2112 13y agoIf it could be proved that you "used the apartment" in lying on your taxes, I don't see why it wouldn't be legally enforceable.
- goodcanadian 13y agoProbably, yes, they could evict you for conducting that particular illegal activity in your apartment. Whether or not a landlord is likely to is a different question. Remember that the clause says that the can evict you, not that they are obligated to. I can imagine a scenario where a landlord might try it if they wanted rid of you for some other reason.
- gpapilion 13y agoI would generally say both are being violated.
- bsder 13y agoMost leases include clauses about complying with applicable laws.
- calbear81 13y agoIn this case, it's not really a sublease because the tenant was occupying the unit at the same time.
- sp332 13y agoShort-term rentals are illegal regardless of lease terms.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- 001sky 13y agoBut if you profit off illegal activity and/or look the other-way... you have created a nexus with that activity...wilful negligence etc. How do you stay out of the legal crosshairs?
- goodcanadian 13y agoBut if you profit off illegal activity and/or look the other-way... you have created a nexus with that activity...wil[l]ful negligence etc. How do you stay out of the legal crosshairs? You don't. AirBnB is potentially creating a huge amount of legal liability for themselves. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out.
- JohnTHaller 13y agoAirbnb is well aware that many of their hosts are renting illegally. In NYC, it's illegal to do a rental without the host there for under 30 days unless you have the proper licensing. So nearly all 'whole apt' rentals on airbnb are illegal. Airbnb makes no effort to let hosts know the laws regarding this.
- xcntktn 13y agoWell yeah, they've got a valuation to worry about. They are not going to let a little something like the law get in the way of that.
- BrainInAJar 13y ago> Airbnb is well aware that many of their hosts are renting illegally Their entire business model, in fact, depends on it. Welcome to the "sharing economy", that is, the economy of ignoring the laws regarding what it is you're trying to do
- paulhauggis 13y ago"the economy of ignoring the laws regarding what it is you're trying to do" not unlike things like Napster..
- boldrikboldrik 13y agoLaws are made to keep status quo. I'd say, break them. EDIT2: I did not mean all laws. But law != morality. EDIT: Cool to know that this community downvotes due to disagreement. Or did this comment add nothing to conversation? I won't be commenting again.
- sliverstorm 13y agodid this comment add nothing to conversation? Yup. It's a meaningless comment that doesn't back up its aggressive assertion or expand on the mental leap it makes. - Can you prove that laws are made to keep status quo? - Why does that alone mean we should break them?
- 13y ago
- deloschang 13y ago"then it seems logical to me that AirBnb should at the very least make the person renting out a place check a box..." As far as AirBnB is concerned, they provide a big chunk of their value serving as a "marketplace", not necessarily for <30 days sublets. Reputation management, escrow etc. Note you can enter in arbitrary check-in and check-out dates and they have a "/sublets" section as well. Wiser for them to focus on this value proposition than try to navigate the red tape and ensure legality across the globe.
- frandroid 13y agoEnsuring hosts know that they risk being evicted for renting out their homes should be part of the value they provide.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 13y agoIf airbnb reminds people they may face legal risks in participating in the service, the hosts may be less likely to continue, which is not in airbnb's interest.
- frandroid 13y agoOh, I understand the short-term capitalist incentive. It doesn't mean that it's right, legal, or in the company's long term interest. What if a class action lawsuit of hosts getting evicted hit them? I have trouble imagining on which grounds this would be successful, but then again IANA(class action)L.
- abruzzi 13y agoIANAL, but I suspect that they want to know as little as possible about specific users. If the play dumb and mention that you may need to check with local laws about the legality, then they can play dumb in court. If they know too much, they become complicit in the "crime" and may be fined, etc.
- frandroid 13y ago
- bdcravens 13y agoEven if you own the place, are there issues with the bank who holds the mortgage (about 2/3 of all homes have mortgages) or the insurance company?
- aidenn0 13y agoThere is essentially never an issue with the insurance company unless you make a claim. The insurance company is happy to take your money regardless of how well or poorly you follow their terms, and will just deny a claim if there is evidence of any violation of the terms.
- 001sky 13y agoGood points, gap cover is the key
- tptacek 13y agoI'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that there's an insurance practice somewhere that will underwrite policies for ABNB renters?
- smsm42 13y agoDoesn't Airbnb provide exactly this insurance? https://www.airbnb.com/guarantee https://www.airbnb.com/guarantee
- tptacek 13y agoThe Host Guarantee is not insurance and should not be considered as a replacement or stand-in for homeowners or renters insurance.
- smsm42 13y agoI'm sure there's a law somewhere that says Airbnb can't offer "insurance" because you need license for that. That's why there are many companies called "banc". But what's the practical difference between "insurance" and "guarantee"?
- klochner 13y agoIt's illegal in SF even if you own your own place: San Francisco bans all residential rentals of less than 30 days unless the hosts have a conditional use permit - an expensive and cumbersome process that virtually everyone ignores. The ban applies whether the hosts own or rent, paying guests visit frequently or once a year, or hosts rent out a room or an entire dwelling. ... though I'm not sure what the penalty is in that case, as you're not going to get evicted from your own home.
- neltnerb 13y agoIf you own your own home, code violations usually result in getting an abatement requiring you to cease that activity, pay fines, or otherwise come into compliance with the law. There are a variety of enforcement mechanisms that can be used ranging from fines to condemning the building depending on how they structured the law.
- yeukhon 13y agoI am confused. This makes Airbnb's business in S.F. (in addition to Airbnb HQ is in SF) and many major cities an oxymoron.
- rhuppert 13y agoIronic, perhaps, but not oxymoronic.
- seivan 13y agoSame thing in Sweden.
- eqdw 13y agoThey post a warning that you as a host are responsible for making sure you're following all your local laws. Of course they're skirting the grey area of the law to make a profit. At the same time, every single host who affirms that they're following the laws, when they are not, are at fault. If you get into the landlord business without bothering to check on local regulations, why should it be AirBnB's fault. Craigslist doesn't make you check a big box that says "renting this out short term is illegal", why should AirBnB?
- scelerat 13y agoParticularly painful is the fact that losing one's apartment in San Francisco is also effectively a banishment from the city. If you're like many people currently living in SF, you can't afford to rent an apartment at current market rates. You don't merely have to find a new apartment; you have to move to a different city. And guess what? If you worked in the city before, your commute costs likely just went up $100-$200 a month. AirBnB absolutely should be bearing some responsibility here if they have been knowingly withholding information about the legality of subletting in San Francisco. Their risk very low, while the consequences for an unwitting AirBnB host are potentially life-altering in a very real way.
- bradleyjg 13y agoCome on -- you have a rent control apartment well under market value and no inkling that you might be limited in how you can directly profit from that circumstance? No thought that hey maybe I should check with my landlord, or at least give it a google?
- scelerat 13y agoYes I was being serious. Big red warning: "by using in AirBnB in this zip code you are likely behaving as an illegal hotel and subject to eviction." To reiterate, the consequences for AirBnB if a host is caught is virtually nothing. The consequences for the host are potentially severe. AirBnB bears an ethical if not legal responsibility to clarify these laws for potential hosts.
- shittyanalogy 13y ago"Likely"? it's either illegal or not. In SF it's illegal.
- mikeash 13y agoIt is at least theoretically possible that they have the appropriate hotel permits, is it not? An actual hotel could advertise their rooms on AirBNB if they wanted to, not that I can see why they would.