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The less Americans know about Ukraine’s location, the more they want ...
- sebastialonso 12y agoAlthough I find it interesting, what's the point of the article other than "look how most Americans are ignorant about world geography"? And what do I gain from it?
- grecy 12y ago> what's the point of the article? I took it as look how most Americans are ignorant about world geography AND how much they want to intervene in something they know nothing about.
- nsxwolf 12y ago"Smart people are anti-war"
- epeterson19 12y agoPeople that take surveys seriously take all of the questions seriously
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- Nacraile 12y agoWhat I always find interesting about "look at how ignorant Americans are" type articles is that they never bother to compare against any other nationality and see if the ignorance is in any way abnormal in a broader context. Is a "look at how ignorant non-Europeans are about world geography?" going to have a different result? (And I would be quite curious to know how many, say, British or Spaniards can accurately place Ukraine on a map. I have a sneaking suspicion that the number is surprisingly low). This coming from a non-American, by the way.
- insuffi 12y agoComing from a non-American as well: Assuming ignorance would fall in the same spectrum compared to other nationalities, you don't hear other nationalities confidently stating their opinions about things they know nothing about. To be fair, I don't have data to back that up, but I can tell you from my personal observations that people usually refrain from commenting or are reasonably educated about the topic. Why this is important in this case is because it's largely a matter of geo-politics, and if you don't even know where the damn country is, you should not seriously suggest a certain course of action.
- ganeumann 12y agoTo be fair, these people were asked for their opinion--it was an opinion survey; it's not like they're walking around volunteering it. Saying they shouldn't say anything when asked is a bit odd. 99.9% of the Americans I talk to every day are refraining from commenting about whether the US should intervene in the Ukraine. But, then, I'm not asking.
- insuffi 12y agoI didn't think about the "pressure" of the survey, I must admit. Fair point. However, does the fact that if you don't know where the country in question is located, and out of war|no war, you choose war, not strike you as somewhat weird? I'd like to think most people would always choose no war over war ESPECIALLY if they're uneducated about the situation.
- ganeumann 12y agoI think when you're 6'6" and 250 lbs of muscle you may be more inclined to step in when someone is threatening a defenseless innocent. Not that that's what's going on here, but I think that's the image that many Americans have of America's place in the world. It's not especially enlightened, but I don't think the people are warmongers, they probably honestly think it's just the right thing to do and that it would have very little in the way of consequences for anyone. It's the latter part that probably correlates with not knowing much about the world outside America's borders.
- fharper1961 12y agoThe more people actually know about a place, the less they think it's a good idea to kill people who live there.
- sp332 12y agoIn this case, military intervention would not involve killing people who live there.
- mikeash 12y agoThe point is that calls for intervention in Ukraine are being driven by people who are ignorant of the situation.
- arjie 12y agoThat is not the point of the article. The reason why Americans are the subject here is that the news agency is American. It is an artifact. What is the interest to an American that people from Botswana want intervention in the Crimean peninsula? That is useless to you. You want to know what your fellow citizens are thinking and why first. That gives you more actionable information. Here the article claims that a desire to intervene is correlated with a lack of geographical knowledge. _That_ is the point. Your comment, whether you meant it to or not, comes off as the sort of defensive reaction that is so very common when any article on the Internet claims something that can be interpreted as putting down Americans.
- bad_alloc 12y agoHow did they ask people to locate Ukraine? Some of these points look like somebody accidentally clicked on a random spot of a map. For example, the dot below New Zealand is in the middle of the ocean (approx. -55.000000,176.000000). Some even located it within the US (Florida seems to be a popular guess). Have they found really misinformed people or is this noise in the data?
- Nacraile 12y agoI would bet that the noise comes from people who have no idea just closing their eyes and clicking at random. Clearly the map wasn't coloured to differentiate bodies of water, considering the clusters in the Black and Caspian seas. (But you'd think people could at least identify the major oceans...)
- insuffi 12y agoBelieve it or not, but there are many real people who point to UK, when asked where Finland is. The point is, if you know where Russia is, you likely know where Ukraine is. The clicking at random is by people who have no idea about either. EDIT: Sorry. I meant that as a reply to your comment regarding legitimacy of the map.
- Crito 12y ago> The point is, if you know where Russia is, you likely know where Ukraine is. I don't know about that. There are ~15 (depending on what you are counting) countries that border Russia. And while I am fairly confident that I could label them all, Russia would certainly be the easiest to label. It's the big one; it's hard to miss. I'm the product of American public schools for what its worth. I learned the countries back in middle school, but learning the locations of countries not in North or South America was extra credit for my class (as was learnin the state capitals, and country capitals).
- waterlesscloud 12y agoConsidering there are notable clusters in Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, you're probably right. Those people probably located Russia, knew Ukraine is "under" Russia, so picked a couple of countries under Russia. Incidentally, I suspect those large clusters in the central asian republics account for a large amount of the error in the median response. The lone clicks in New Zealand or whatever don't count as much as big clusters do, and those clusters are pretty near the median error of 1800 miles off.
- tavinathanson 12y agoNote that “the dots are colored based on how far removed they are from the actual country, with the most accurate responses in red and the least accurate ones in blue.” Given that the dots are not colored by a preference for intervention, but simply by location on the map, I feel that the visualization is misleading.
- nulagrithom 12y agoI see lots of numbers in there, but none relating to a desire for military action, save for the fact they're "95% confident" that people who don't know where Ukraine is are more likely to support military action. How much more likely are they?
- moskie 12y agoI don't dispute the conclusion of this study, but this might be a great example of when the choice of map projection used has a significant consequences. For example, would Greenland have been chosen so many times if a projection were used that didn't make it look so huge?
- insuffi 12y agoMany replies here try to dispute the methodology and UX in the survey. When it comes to geography, you either know it, or you don't. The distance from Ukraine for many data points is so big, that you can't possibly write it down to projection/UX.
- Crito 12y agoWhether they answered "in Florida" or "in Kansas" is of little consequence. Either way, they don't know where it is, and that comes through loud and clear.
- jnbiche 12y agoI can't even find the survey methodology. Where is it?
- nogridbag 12y agoThe UX certainly doesn't help! I've been to Russia and Ukraine several times. I can easily point out Ukraine on a normal map but I must admit that single colored map is a bit confusing.
- ngokevin 12y agoNormal maps tell you where Ukraine is :)
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- lgleason 12y agoReminds me of this video. As an American it makes me sad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0TK_vk-XDM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0TK_vk-XDM
- azinman2 12y agoThat was cringe worthy.
- qwerta 12y agoSo what? Most people in Europe do not know where Washington state is. Anyway US already intervened in Ukraine several times. I just hope this will not become another Iraq.
- mikeash 12y agoDo they have strong opinions about European intervention in Washington state?
- epo 12y agoHas Washington state been on the news in Europe a lot recently?
- vdaniuk 12y agoWhen did US intervened in Ukraine?
- sentenza 12y agoThat's a bit unfair, though, as Washington State is an internal subdivision. That's like asking an American where Galicia is (either the Spanish or the Ukrainian one). And the US will not actively intervene in the Ukraine, since NATO, as an organizational entity, would probably be damaged badly. Most of Europe wants to stop the Russian Bear but also wants to keep the situation from escalating. If the US pushed for an intervention against the opposition of key NATO members (after having done so so in Iraq), where would that leave NATO?
- pekk 12y agoRussia knows more about Ukraine's geography, so they should occupy it.
- nswanberg 12y agoThe map would have been more interesting if the color represented preference for intervention.
- antsar 12y agoThis. Color is an entire dimension they had available, and they used it to reiterate what we can already see (distance from actual Ukraine) instead of the actual point they are trying to make (clueless about location => wants to intervene)
- benjvi 12y agoThis makes sense, no? With less knowledge about the Ukraine and hence less information about the ties and affinity parts of its population have to Russia, the more aggressive Russia seems. Without that knowledge, you just have to take the prior assumption that Ukraine is just like any other country, no specific link to Russia - and given that, the breach of sovereignty seems more egregious than it is in this specific situation.
- jnbiche 12y agoMost interesting tidbit for me: "self-identified independents (29 percent correct) outperformed both Democrats (14 percent correct) and Republicans (15 percent correct)" Edit: Removed inflammatory language about Democrats and Republicans and will let the numbers speak for themselves.
- FatalLogic 12y agoThis seems to be a textbook example of the Dunning-Kruger effect: the people who know least are the most willing to take action, because their ignorance blinds them to the impracticality and potential consequences of that action. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
- Florin_Andrei 12y agoIt's also a dead ringer for all the stereotypes about gung-ho ignorants taking all their views and opinions from the talk show ideologue du jour.
- crdoconnor 12y agoCOuld simply be that the ignorant/dumb are more likely to react favorably to propaganda.
- sentenza 12y agoIs there a name for when you get progressively more depressed about an issue the more you learn about it? The Ukraine conflict might very well also qualify for that.
- ganeumann 12y ago> Is there a name for when you get progressively more depressed about an issue the more you learn about it? Experience.
- badman_ting 12y agoThe Dunning-Kruger Effect Effect.
- pistle 12y agoWhere's the map where they baseline people identifying something in the US (or other map points with higher likely familiarity) correctly as well? That would help clear out some noise. Secondly. Who cares at this point? Seems like Putin keeps Crimea on the basis of some familiar reasoning that bodes poorly for outcomes here. There is no appetite or willing money for military intervention at scale.
- saraid216 12y agoDoes anyone spy a link to the data? Some of the numbers make me think they're over-emphasizing the conclusion.
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- henrikschroder 12y agoWhat do you mean?
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- delucain 12y agoMore people need to play Risk apparently.
- EugeneOZ 12y agoI suppose it will be big surprise to many people (even some russians) to know, that first capital of ancient Russia was Kiev, current capital of Ukraine ;)