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> You and everyone else I've asked this question to seem to dance around it. How is this any different than supporting any other kind of anti-equality thing? H

> You and everyone else I've asked this question to seem to dance around it. How is this any different than supporting any other kind of anti-equality thing? He has not said anything hateful. In many ways, I think his opinion is not conducive to equality. In fact, the notion of marriage is unequal. It's unequal to people who don't want to get married or are polyamorous. Also, there are many natural inequalities. There are many gray areas. Also, everybody has prejudices and promote inequality in some contexts. However, just because someone has an opinion of inequality, doesn't mean he should be the target of a smear campaign. Tolerance is important. > Rejecting intolerance is the first step. That's why I'm rejecting the gay rights movement's online bullying tactics. You don't get a free pass just because you were an oppressed minority in the past. > Which holds about as much water as "sorry you were offended" in my book. He said he is sorry he caused pain. He admitted to causing the pain and apologized for that. He did not turn the blame around to say your perception is wrong. He is the target of your hate. Let go of your hate. Hate is the dark side... > I have no problem what-so-ever castigating someone for bad behavior if it's actually proven that they did engage in bad behavior. It's not proven that he behaved badly. Also, who is the proper judge of this? The mob always feels like they are the right judge. The mob always feels justified. How else could the mob justify the bad things that mobs do to their victims? > you're mis-framing Eich's action as if it were a mere opinion or thought that crossed his mind one day Have a rational dialog about this. Express how much pain Prop 8 caused. Express why this is an inequality & how that affects you. Don't act with vengeance. That is why Martin Luther King & Ghandi were successful. They did not act like their oppressors. They had the moral high ground. If they acted with vengeance, equality would not be as far as it is today.

Karunamon 13y ago
He has not said anything hateful. No, he just gave them money. Given the choice, I'd rather he stand outside of Mozilla's corporate office holding an allcaps sign covered in slurs ala Westboro Baptist than financially support them. At least his personal actions don't contribute to further oppression in that case. doesn't mean he should be the target of a smear campaign What smear campaign? Every criticism of Eich that I've both read and given focuses on 3 objective and concrete things. 1. He donated money to a group that can be charitably described as a "hate group". This alone wouldn't be so bad, but: 2. He had a chance to walk that back, say that he changed his mind, say that was a long time ago, and did not. In fact, he quit his job rather than do so. Which leads into: 3. He poorly handled this entire event, which calls his credentials for being a CEO in the first place into question. That's not a smear campaign by any conceivable definition of the words. That's why I'm rejecting the gay rights movement's online bullying tactics. Again, 3 facts. Not opinions, facts. Facts cannot be bullying, else any critical analysis of something important to a person becomes "bullying". He did not turn the blame around to say your perception is wrong. He went well out of his way to avoid directly confronting anything that would have confirmed or denied this verbally. But, his actions did that for us. He is the target of your hate I appreciate your zen, but I do not hate Eich. I think he was a poor choice for CEO and is a hypocrite. He's not someone I'd care to work with or under since he demonstrably dislikes me for who I am, having never met me. That is not hate. If I have any vitriol at all, it's directed at his defenders and those that want to make him a martyr for "freedom of speech". It's not proven that he behaved badly Donating $1000 to a hate group is not "behaving badly"? This is a matter of public record. Express how much pain Prop 8 caused. Express why this is an inequality & how that affects you. Don't act with vengeance Which I've gone well out of my way to do. Yet somehow, just be repeating facts about Eich's observable actions, I am acting with "hate" and "vengeance". Sorry, but I do not see it.
- briantakita 13y ago
  > Donating $1000 to a hate group is not "behaving badly"? Prop 8 is a proposition, not a hate group. This redefinition is scary and files a "hate group" as being anyone who disagrees with your position. Supporting a proposition is his right and it is ok. I don't see his intent as being hateful. Ignorant, but not hate. > If I have any vitriol at all, it's directed at his defenders and those that want to make him a martyr for "freedom of speech". That sounds like you hate me now. It also sounds like you hate freedom, sorry to say. I'm aware of the cliché, but you said it. Funny how the moderates are targeted by extremists. --- I'm getting into activism myself, so I understand how important this is to you. All I can say is keep your humanity & honor in the process. Your movement will be better off.
  - Karunamon 13y ago
    The political organization that's behind Prop 8 (the people that Eich donated to, since you can't donate to a bill) quacks like a hate group in a number of ways, not least of which is they dehumanize and make fun of LGBTs. If you have not already, please view that slate.com link I sent you a couple posts ago. You can ignore the text there as it's basically what I've been saying here verbatim, but I would ask you to pay special attention to the videos - they are actual ads that the group put together and which actually aired in California. Maybe then you'll see why I apply this label - I didn't just arbitrarily dredge it up as the worst possible thing I could think of to call them. >That sounds like you hate me now. I find it very puzzling that you say I am practicing all this hatred by saying I find Eich's actions repugnant, and now you're saying I'm practicing hatred toward you by simply having a (remarkably civil and productive) discussion with you. Yet Eich is the guy who wants people to be second class citizens. Does. Not. Compute.
    - scintill76 13y ago
      This article[0]? My response is that Eich didn't personally approve these ads, and may have had no way of possibly knowing what his money would actually fund. (I'd be interested in evidence about the visibility of any prior work, the timing of his donation, etc., though.) If you find simply supporting the idea repugnant, sure, but then arguments like "he donated to a hate group" and Slate's "The Campaign for Prop 8 Was Unprecedentedly Cruel" aren't really necessary. If they pushed a law that is hateful to the core, it's less relevant how hateful or not the group itself was. I suppose if he did see and regret the ads, he could have said so, but AFAIK has said nothing. Then again, he probably felt that doing anything other than a long thorough apology, donating to pro-gay-marriage groups, crying for forgiveness, etc., would dig the hole deeper. [0] http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/04/04/brendan_eich_supported_prop_8_which_was_worse_than_you_remember.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/04/04/brendan_eich_s...

Karunamon 13y ago

He has not said anything hateful. No, he just gave them money. Given the choice, I'd rather he stand outside of Mozilla's corporate office holding an allcaps sign covered in slurs ala Westboro Baptist than financially support them. At least his personal actions don't contribute to further oppression in that case. doesn't mean he should be the target of a smear campaign What smear campaign? Every criticism of Eich that I've both read and given focuses on 3 objective and concrete things. 1. He donated money to a group that can be charitably described as a "hate group". This alone wouldn't be so bad, but: 2. He had a chance to walk that back, say that he changed his mind, say that was a long time ago, and did not. In fact, he quit his job rather than do so. Which leads into: 3. He poorly handled this entire event, which calls his credentials for being a CEO in the first place into question. That's not a smear campaign by any conceivable definition of the words. That's why I'm rejecting the gay rights movement's online bullying tactics. Again, 3 facts. Not opinions, facts. Facts cannot be bullying, else any critical analysis of something important to a person becomes "bullying". He did not turn the blame around to say your perception is wrong. He went well out of his way to avoid directly confronting anything that would have confirmed or denied this verbally. But, his actions did that for us. He is the target of your hate I appreciate your zen, but I do not hate Eich. I think he was a poor choice for CEO and is a hypocrite. He's not someone I'd care to work with or under since he demonstrably dislikes me for who I am, having never met me. That is not hate. If I have any vitriol at all, it's directed at his defenders and those that want to make him a martyr for "freedom of speech". It's not proven that he behaved badly Donating $1000 to a hate group is not "behaving badly"? This is a matter of public record. Express how much pain Prop 8 caused. Express why this is an inequality & how that affects you. Don't act with vengeance Which I've gone well out of my way to do. Yet somehow, just be repeating facts about Eich's observable actions, I am acting with "hate" and "vengeance". Sorry, but I do not see it.

briantakita 13y ago
> Donating $1000 to a hate group is not "behaving badly"? Prop 8 is a proposition, not a hate group. This redefinition is scary and files a "hate group" as being anyone who disagrees with your position. Supporting a proposition is his right and it is ok. I don't see his intent as being hateful. Ignorant, but not hate. > If I have any vitriol at all, it's directed at his defenders and those that want to make him a martyr for "freedom of speech". That sounds like you hate me now. It also sounds like you hate freedom, sorry to say. I'm aware of the cliché, but you said it. Funny how the moderates are targeted by extremists. --- I'm getting into activism myself, so I understand how important this is to you. All I can say is keep your humanity & honor in the process. Your movement will be better off.
- Karunamon 13y ago
  The political organization that's behind Prop 8 (the people that Eich donated to, since you can't donate to a bill) quacks like a hate group in a number of ways, not least of which is they dehumanize and make fun of LGBTs. If you have not already, please view that slate.com link I sent you a couple posts ago. You can ignore the text there as it's basically what I've been saying here verbatim, but I would ask you to pay special attention to the videos - they are actual ads that the group put together and which actually aired in California. Maybe then you'll see why I apply this label - I didn't just arbitrarily dredge it up as the worst possible thing I could think of to call them. >That sounds like you hate me now. I find it very puzzling that you say I am practicing all this hatred by saying I find Eich's actions repugnant, and now you're saying I'm practicing hatred toward you by simply having a (remarkably civil and productive) discussion with you. Yet Eich is the guy who wants people to be second class citizens. Does. Not. Compute.
  - scintill76 13y ago
    This article[0]? My response is that Eich didn't personally approve these ads, and may have had no way of possibly knowing what his money would actually fund. (I'd be interested in evidence about the visibility of any prior work, the timing of his donation, etc., though.) If you find simply supporting the idea repugnant, sure, but then arguments like "he donated to a hate group" and Slate's "The Campaign for Prop 8 Was Unprecedentedly Cruel" aren't really necessary. If they pushed a law that is hateful to the core, it's less relevant how hateful or not the group itself was. I suppose if he did see and regret the ads, he could have said so, but AFAIK has said nothing. Then again, he probably felt that doing anything other than a long thorough apology, donating to pro-gay-marriage groups, crying for forgiveness, etc., would dig the hole deeper. [0] http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/04/04/brendan_eich_supported_prop_8_which_was_worse_than_you_remember.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/04/04/brendan_eich_s...