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"...some educators worry that three years isn’t enough time for young people to find themselves intellectually or emotionally." Almost all degrees in England a

"...some educators worry that three years isn’t enough time for young people to find themselves intellectually or emotionally." Almost all degrees in England are three years degrees.

stephen_g 13y ago
Same with most in Australia. Engineering is one exception, generally being four years. But often that includes honours built-in (if you get a good enough GPA), whereas with most other degrees you have to do an extra year after finishing the bachelors degree to get that.
Wohui 13y ago
The problem is, existing 3 year degrees in America are compressed 4 year degrees. America should ditch gen-ed at the same time (as switching to 3-year).
- ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
  Yeah, and a lot of that is based on baby boomer (and older) nostalgia that sees college as a place to acquire a broad education and to 'find yourself.' In other words, its completely unsuitable to a world of student loan debt that is spiraling out of control.
  - dfc 13y ago
    So your problem is with the student loan debt and not the value placed on a broad education?
    - ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
      Both, but I don't think you can realistically ignore the problems of student loan debt these days. The less time you spend in college, the less debt you'll accumulate.
  - bennyg 13y ago
    I just think college should be about finishing at your own pace and dealing with the consequences. If you finish in 3, you bust your ass and miss a lot of social interactions / lazy days (which are good). If you finish in 5, you take on more debt (potentially).
KC8ZKF 13y ago
Q.E.D.
ollysb 13y ago
Given that a large part of most degrees is pretty irrelevant to the student's future career 3 years seems plenty. If you're going to be an academic you can just do a masters or get on with your PHD.
- dfc 13y ago
  I am always amazed with HN's fascination with college degrees. What is the large part of most degrees that is pretty irrelevant to a student's future career? {The downvote is a great example of this fascination. Merely asking a question was troublesome enough for someone that instead of responding to the question they clicked the down arrow. My question was polite and genuine, at least that was my intention. What is so threatening/offensive about my question?}
  - sharkweek 13y ago
    Anecdotally, I'm a polisci major who got lost on the way to law school and ended up in marketing. Another of my friends was an English major; planned to go into teaching but found himself in med school a few years later. It's always a pretty wide variety, but I feel a large number of people end up heading another direction at some point, if not right after college.
    - dfc 13y ago
      Neither of your examples are degrees that were pursued in order to get a job in the student's eventual career; so I do not see how they are relevant. If "a large number of people end up heading another direction at some point, if not right after college" it seems that general education would be more important than career specific education. (I too was a PSC major and ended up doing my 1L year before wandering elsewhere)
      - rohamg 13y ago
        General education is absolutely more important than career-specific education. The education that happens outside the classroom is even more important: and general education contributes to this by mixing together folks from different majors and walks of life. Personal story: I went to high school in France. When it came for me to decide between colleges, I had the choice between a 3 year degree at Cambridge and a 4 year degree at Stanford. The Cambridge program was for "Natural Sciences", Stanford didn't ask me to select a major until 3 years in. I chose Stanford, took a wide variety of classes far outside anything i had been exposed to previously, and ended up with a degree in Economics -- in addition to a BS and an MS in Biology during which I had the opportunity to pursue many courses in CS, statistics, data analysis, etc. It was also fun, so much so that I ended up staying 5 years instead of 4. Today I work in tech. Had I chosen Cambridge my perspective (and my life!) would be very different.
cliveowen 13y ago
Same in Italy.
rm445 13y ago
Except, most UK undergraduates in mathematics, engineering and the sciences now do a 4-year first degree, albeit a taught masters. If you meet someone styled MEng, MMath, MSci or MChem, that's generally what they've got. Note they generally do not have e.g. BEng MEng or BSc MEng: the fourth year has an extended project/thesis element but is not a separate degree. It's all very nice to have a masters as your first degree, but you can't really escape the fact that university expansion and the eroding standards of A-levels, together with the technological demands of the modern world, mean it's very hard for three years of higher education in the sciences to be enough.
- danpalmer 13y ago
  The 3 years we do in the UK generally contains the same amount of the chosen subject as the 4 year degrees in America do as far as I can see. The main difference is that we only do our subject, whereas students in America often do lots of extra and quite different modules. I think there is some merit to that system. Also, I wouldn't say that most undergrads in STEM do 4 year masters degrees in the UK. I think a fair few do, but going on what I've seen from friends, and what I saw when I was applying for my CS degree 4 years ago, which I'm coming to the end of now, it can often be difficult to find places that do the 4 year masters. For CS, there were probably fewer than 10 places in the country that did MEng. This is just my experience though, it might be changing, and I'm a few years out of date.
cafard 13y ago
I don't see college's mission as helping one find oneself emotionally. As for intellectually, a fair number of those getting degrees have limited interest in that.

"...some educators worry that three years isn’t enough time for young people to find themselves intellectually or emotionally." Almost all degrees in England are three years degrees.

stephen_g 13y ago

Same with most in Australia. Engineering is one exception, generally being four years. But often that includes honours built-in (if you get a good enough GPA), whereas with most other degrees you have to do an extra year after finishing the bachelors degree to get that.

Wohui 13y ago

The problem is, existing 3 year degrees in America are compressed 4 year degrees. America should ditch gen-ed at the same time (as switching to 3-year).

ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
Yeah, and a lot of that is based on baby boomer (and older) nostalgia that sees college as a place to acquire a broad education and to 'find yourself.' In other words, its completely unsuitable to a world of student loan debt that is spiraling out of control.
- dfc 13y ago
  So your problem is with the student loan debt and not the value placed on a broad education?
  - ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
    Both, but I don't think you can realistically ignore the problems of student loan debt these days. The less time you spend in college, the less debt you'll accumulate.
- bennyg 13y ago
  I just think college should be about finishing at your own pace and dealing with the consequences. If you finish in 3, you bust your ass and miss a lot of social interactions / lazy days (which are good). If you finish in 5, you take on more debt (potentially).

KC8ZKF 13y ago

Q.E.D.

ollysb 13y ago

Given that a large part of most degrees is pretty irrelevant to the student's future career 3 years seems plenty. If you're going to be an academic you can just do a masters or get on with your PHD.

dfc 13y ago
I am always amazed with HN's fascination with college degrees. What is the large part of most degrees that is pretty irrelevant to a student's future career? {The downvote is a great example of this fascination. Merely asking a question was troublesome enough for someone that instead of responding to the question they clicked the down arrow. My question was polite and genuine, at least that was my intention. What is so threatening/offensive about my question?}
- sharkweek 13y ago
  Anecdotally, I'm a polisci major who got lost on the way to law school and ended up in marketing. Another of my friends was an English major; planned to go into teaching but found himself in med school a few years later. It's always a pretty wide variety, but I feel a large number of people end up heading another direction at some point, if not right after college.
  - dfc 13y ago
    Neither of your examples are degrees that were pursued in order to get a job in the student's eventual career; so I do not see how they are relevant. If "a large number of people end up heading another direction at some point, if not right after college" it seems that general education would be more important than career specific education. (I too was a PSC major and ended up doing my 1L year before wandering elsewhere)
    - rohamg 13y ago
      General education is absolutely more important than career-specific education. The education that happens outside the classroom is even more important: and general education contributes to this by mixing together folks from different majors and walks of life. Personal story: I went to high school in France. When it came for me to decide between colleges, I had the choice between a 3 year degree at Cambridge and a 4 year degree at Stanford. The Cambridge program was for "Natural Sciences", Stanford didn't ask me to select a major until 3 years in. I chose Stanford, took a wide variety of classes far outside anything i had been exposed to previously, and ended up with a degree in Economics -- in addition to a BS and an MS in Biology during which I had the opportunity to pursue many courses in CS, statistics, data analysis, etc. It was also fun, so much so that I ended up staying 5 years instead of 4. Today I work in tech. Had I chosen Cambridge my perspective (and my life!) would be very different.

cliveowen 13y ago

Same in Italy.

rm445 13y ago

Except, most UK undergraduates in mathematics, engineering and the sciences now do a 4-year first degree, albeit a taught masters. If you meet someone styled MEng, MMath, MSci or MChem, that's generally what they've got. Note they generally do not have e.g. BEng MEng or BSc MEng: the fourth year has an extended project/thesis element but is not a separate degree. It's all very nice to have a masters as your first degree, but you can't really escape the fact that university expansion and the eroding standards of A-levels, together with the technological demands of the modern world, mean it's very hard for three years of higher education in the sciences to be enough.

danpalmer 13y ago
The 3 years we do in the UK generally contains the same amount of the chosen subject as the 4 year degrees in America do as far as I can see. The main difference is that we only do our subject, whereas students in America often do lots of extra and quite different modules. I think there is some merit to that system. Also, I wouldn't say that most undergrads in STEM do 4 year masters degrees in the UK. I think a fair few do, but going on what I've seen from friends, and what I saw when I was applying for my CS degree 4 years ago, which I'm coming to the end of now, it can often be difficult to find places that do the 4 year masters. For CS, there were probably fewer than 10 places in the country that did MEng. This is just my experience though, it might be changing, and I'm a few years out of date.

cafard 13y ago

I don't see college's mission as helping one find oneself emotionally. As for intellectually, a fair number of those getting degrees have limited interest in that.