5 ms·

>He had the jacks removed from his skull at Kingston General Hospital in 2010 as they were infecting badly, due to being made of titanium. I was under the impr

by oakwhiz 13y ago

>He had the jacks removed from his skull at Kingston General Hospital in 2010 as they were infecting badly, due to being made of titanium. I was under the impression that titanium was one of the few materials considered to be safe for human implantation.

serf 13y ago
titanium is safe. the jack part is unsafe. to have a subdermal anchor for external hardware is extremely tricky. flesh pockets around the anchor and has tons of potential for infection after prolonged use. I , too, was confused by the wording.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
waps 13y ago
The way I understand it is this : if an implant is nice and smooth and well integrated with it's surrounding tissue then a titanium implant is safe. Safe in the sense that the immune system won't attack it just because it's there, like it would with metal or frankly almost any substance (the 2 exceptions are titanium and gold, just ask someone with earrings what happens if you insert a silver or metal earring near a scratch). If the implant has sharp edges, or rips into the surrounding tissue, or otherwise causes cells to die or prevents repair of damaged tissue somehow, the immune system will go looking for a culprit[1]. If it decides that the implant is the culprit, bad luck. It will attempt to surround the implant and expel it. Depending on the size this may or may not work (this is what happens to splinters of wood that get into your body, for example). This can even cause the immune system to decide a bone is the culprit, if it does you have rheumatoid arthritis (it's a condition that you are very likely to get if you live long enough) Furthermore, implants may actually infect, as in a bacterial colony may develop on their surface (because the contact surface with the immune system is much smaller, an infection has a bigger chance to maintain that position. Always keep in mind that the immune system wins against bacteria not because it's better or smarter, but because it has 80kg of cells working logistics for it). The same can happen to bones. [1] To be exact, cells have an "alarm" signal molecule floating inside them. If the cell is ordered to commit suicide (apoptosis), it will put out an enzyme that neutralizes this alarm molecule before ripping itself to shreds, the same will happen if the immune system orders a cell to eat itself (autophagy). But if the cell dies for some other reason (e.g. getting ripped to shreds, explosion due to infection, ...) the alarm signal will be spread into the surrounding tissue where the immune system can find it. When it finds it, it will come in force to check out the situation. If it keeps seeing this signal without finding a cause, the immune system will go insane/react badly.
- dm2 13y ago
  The "jacks" they are referring to are the openings in the skin where the wires come out of, I'm guessing one for data and one for power. Artificial openings in the body are very difficult to keep from getting infected. http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/10.09/images/FF.Sight.SH.29337.r2_f.jpg http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/10.09/images/FF.Sight...
  - derekp7 13y ago
    So why not use RF for data, and magnetic induction for power?
    - dm2 13y ago
      The device in the article was implanted over 10 years ago. I'm sure there are research teams looking into the wireless methods, in 2002 it just wasn't possible yet. Magnetic induction has it's own challenges, especially when being used with a device inside living tissue. Wireless power for medical devices has only been practical for the past couple years, and even now the technology is in it's infancy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_energy_transfer#Timeline_of_wireless_power http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_energy_transfer#Timeli...
    - pocketstar 13y ago
      This would be prohibitively large to implant in the brain. Betavoltaics could provide a novel power source, I believe they are used in some pacemakers. RF would be a problem because cancer. People forget that magnetic induction can also be used for data and power transfer simultaneously, I believe they use this approach with some cochlear implants.
      - robryk 13y ago
        > RF would be a problem because cancer. Could you provide some evidence for this? Also, isn't magnetic induction basically RF?
Udo 13y ago
As others have pointed out, the titanium remark is a non-sequitur. The infection was most likely caused by the implant breaking the skin, which is an absolute medical blunder to begin with. For the device to have had any chance of working in the long run, it would have to be completely sealed within the eye socket. In there, it could be recharged using induction and it could receive data through an optical or radio interface that sends signals across the skin. There is not a lot of information about the device or the procedure they used to install it, but the whole thing sounds as if it was poorly conceived.
- leoc 13y ago
  It seems that there's some promise of medical devices that can break the skin relatively safely, but it's still early days: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-26721547 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-26721547
pocketstar 13y ago
BIOCOMPATIBLITY is the key word here. Titanium is a very biocompatible material. The article is pretty much flat out wrong here, it is impossible for titanium to cause an infection. >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infection http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infection Having a chronic wound from the protruding titanium electrode however would increase the risk of infection, but the material is independent of the infection.

by oakwhiz 13y ago

serf 13y ago

titanium is safe. the jack part is unsafe. to have a subdermal anchor for external hardware is extremely tricky. flesh pockets around the anchor and has tons of potential for infection after prolonged use. I , too, was confused by the wording.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

waps 13y ago

The way I understand it is this : if an implant is nice and smooth and well integrated with it's surrounding tissue then a titanium implant is safe. Safe in the sense that the immune system won't attack it just because it's there, like it would with metal or frankly almost any substance (the 2 exceptions are titanium and gold, just ask someone with earrings what happens if you insert a silver or metal earring near a scratch). If the implant has sharp edges, or rips into the surrounding tissue, or otherwise causes cells to die or prevents repair of damaged tissue somehow, the immune system will go looking for a culprit[1]. If it decides that the implant is the culprit, bad luck. It will attempt to surround the implant and expel it. Depending on the size this may or may not work (this is what happens to splinters of wood that get into your body, for example). This can even cause the immune system to decide a bone is the culprit, if it does you have rheumatoid arthritis (it's a condition that you are very likely to get if you live long enough) Furthermore, implants may actually infect, as in a bacterial colony may develop on their surface (because the contact surface with the immune system is much smaller, an infection has a bigger chance to maintain that position. Always keep in mind that the immune system wins against bacteria not because it's better or smarter, but because it has 80kg of cells working logistics for it). The same can happen to bones. [1] To be exact, cells have an "alarm" signal molecule floating inside them. If the cell is ordered to commit suicide (apoptosis), it will put out an enzyme that neutralizes this alarm molecule before ripping itself to shreds, the same will happen if the immune system orders a cell to eat itself (autophagy). But if the cell dies for some other reason (e.g. getting ripped to shreds, explosion due to infection, ...) the alarm signal will be spread into the surrounding tissue where the immune system can find it. When it finds it, it will come in force to check out the situation. If it keeps seeing this signal without finding a cause, the immune system will go insane/react badly.

dm2 13y ago
The "jacks" they are referring to are the openings in the skin where the wires come out of, I'm guessing one for data and one for power. Artificial openings in the body are very difficult to keep from getting infected. http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/10.09/images/FF.Sight.SH.29337.r2_f.jpg http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/10.09/images/FF.Sight...
- derekp7 13y ago
  So why not use RF for data, and magnetic induction for power?
  - dm2 13y ago
    The device in the article was implanted over 10 years ago. I'm sure there are research teams looking into the wireless methods, in 2002 it just wasn't possible yet. Magnetic induction has it's own challenges, especially when being used with a device inside living tissue. Wireless power for medical devices has only been practical for the past couple years, and even now the technology is in it's infancy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_energy_transfer#Timeline_of_wireless_power http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_energy_transfer#Timeli...
  - pocketstar 13y ago
    This would be prohibitively large to implant in the brain. Betavoltaics could provide a novel power source, I believe they are used in some pacemakers. RF would be a problem because cancer. People forget that magnetic induction can also be used for data and power transfer simultaneously, I believe they use this approach with some cochlear implants.
    - robryk 13y ago
      > RF would be a problem because cancer. Could you provide some evidence for this? Also, isn't magnetic induction basically RF?

Udo 13y ago

As others have pointed out, the titanium remark is a non-sequitur. The infection was most likely caused by the implant breaking the skin, which is an absolute medical blunder to begin with. For the device to have had any chance of working in the long run, it would have to be completely sealed within the eye socket. In there, it could be recharged using induction and it could receive data through an optical or radio interface that sends signals across the skin. There is not a lot of information about the device or the procedure they used to install it, but the whole thing sounds as if it was poorly conceived.

leoc 13y ago
It seems that there's some promise of medical devices that can break the skin relatively safely, but it's still early days: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-26721547 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-26721547

pocketstar 13y ago

BIOCOMPATIBLITY is the key word here. Titanium is a very biocompatible material. The article is pretty much flat out wrong here, it is impossible for titanium to cause an infection. >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infection http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infection Having a chronic wound from the protruding titanium electrode however would increase the risk of infection, but the material is independent of the infection.