8 ms·

Systemd is soon to be integrated as the default init daemon for Ubuntu, one of the most user-friendly Linux distributions available. It worries me that Sievers

Systemd is soon to be integrated as the default init daemon for Ubuntu, one of the most user-friendly Linux distributions available. It worries me that Sievers, and the systemd team aren't approaching testing with an almost paranoid attitude. Linux is finally getting a foothold in consumer desktops, it'd be a shame for people to go back to other operating systems purely because "it broke one day, something about systemd".

dredmorbius 13y ago
And I really, really wish Ubuntu had held out with upstart instead. We need the alternative. You don't cavilierly fuck with PID 1, and that's precisely what the systemd folk appear to be doing. I'm really hoping Linus's rant makes an impact on them.
- akira2501 13y ago
  They're fucking around well beyond PID 1. Default binary log formats. This odd binary messaging bus with god awful reverse domain names, a shifting binary protocol format that injects itself into the kernels standard text-based messaging formats. I find the whole dependency system completely bizarre, because to truly implement it, you have to hook into _everything_ and make it part of this odd binary mess they've created above. I really don't understand the route they are taking, I see the system becoming less capable and more fragile with this type of engineering being encouraged.
  - dredmorbius 13y ago
    Oh, I know. Which again is why I'm as concerned as I am.
  - papaf 13y ago
    They also took over core dumps. ulimit -c unlimited It just fails siliently now. The priesthood have determined that it is better to run: systemd-coredumpctl This annoyed me because if I wanted to do internet searches to achieve simple things I would be using another OS.
anaphor 13y ago
Yeah I'm considering switching to FreeBSD or even OpenBSD (if it would be possible to play some of my games on it). I don't want to switch really, but if systemd is going to be the default init system from here on and it continues to be plagued by bullshit like this then I don't really want to be bothered by it. (FYI I currently use Arch Linux, one of the early adopters of systemd).
- jzelinskie 13y ago
  Speaking of FreeBSD, weren't they supposed to be adopting launchd? What's the progress on that?
  - anaphor 13y ago
    Googling tells me that they have been working on porting it and apparently it is more or less done but not yet the default.
  - dfc 13y ago
    Someone with better freebsd knowledge should chime in, but until then... It is my understanding that the launchd port was one guys google summer project, he worked on it for the summer, put it aside for a couple years and picked it up recently. The fbsd wiki on launchd: https://wiki.freebsd.org/launchd https://wiki.freebsd.org/launchd
thaumaturgy 13y ago
> it'd be a shame for people to go back to other operating systems purely because "it broke one day, something about systemd". FWIW, exactly this happened to me on an upgrade one day on another Linux distribution, after a few other headaches. The switch to systemd broke smbd/nmbd, at the time there were not yet tools for spitting the new binary log format into text, and trying to data mine that logging system to figure out what the hell broke was a real adventure. I was so skeeved I immediately dumped that and fled to Debian, because it had a reputation for stability. Imagine how excited I was when Debian voted to adopt systemd. I, also, have started looking at the BSDs again recently. herbstluftwm looks pretty nifty.
Workaphobia 13y ago
I haven't used linux on a desktop in several years, but my experience was that "it broke many days, something about everything". Why should this one component be held on a pedestal as make-or-break for the whole OS? Is a broken init daemon worse than a broken xorg.conf from a desktop user's perspective?
- burntsushi 13y ago
  As you said, you haven't used the Linux desktop in many years. It's come a long way in that time. For example, editing your xorg.conf is virtually a thing of the past these days. I haven't touched it in years and run a fancy triple monitor setup.
  - neumann 13y ago
    right up until a ubuntu kernel update breaks the binary gpu driver, and you spend the next two days trying to figure out which binary or open source driver allows you to run everything the way you were at the beginning of the week. Repeat this every 6 months.
- jafaku 13y ago
  Why not give it another try now then? I have used it for years and, unlike windows, I never had to reinstall it just because something broke. And things only broke when I messed around with them, but it was always fixable. If you also use virtual machines or linux containers you will never break anything.
  - Workaphobia 13y ago
    I intend to dual boot next time I upgrade laptops, so we'll see. I absolutely loved the customizability of the desktop environments. But I hated worrying about graphics drivers, updates, xorg.conf, automake, and finagling my system configuration to get source tarballs to compile.
pjmlp 13y ago
I still use multiple OS across my laptops. GNU/Linux support has improved a lot since my first installation in 1995, but it is still hit-and-miss on laptops.
- fauigerzigerk 13y ago
  That's exactly my experience as well.

dredmorbius 13y ago

And I really, really wish Ubuntu had held out with upstart instead. We need the alternative. You don't cavilierly fuck with PID 1, and that's precisely what the systemd folk appear to be doing. I'm really hoping Linus's rant makes an impact on them.

akira2501 13y ago
They're fucking around well beyond PID 1. Default binary log formats. This odd binary messaging bus with god awful reverse domain names, a shifting binary protocol format that injects itself into the kernels standard text-based messaging formats. I find the whole dependency system completely bizarre, because to truly implement it, you have to hook into _everything_ and make it part of this odd binary mess they've created above. I really don't understand the route they are taking, I see the system becoming less capable and more fragile with this type of engineering being encouraged.
- dredmorbius 13y ago
  Oh, I know. Which again is why I'm as concerned as I am.
- papaf 13y ago
  They also took over core dumps. ulimit -c unlimited It just fails siliently now. The priesthood have determined that it is better to run: systemd-coredumpctl This annoyed me because if I wanted to do internet searches to achieve simple things I would be using another OS.

anaphor 13y ago

Yeah I'm considering switching to FreeBSD or even OpenBSD (if it would be possible to play some of my games on it). I don't want to switch really, but if systemd is going to be the default init system from here on and it continues to be plagued by bullshit like this then I don't really want to be bothered by it. (FYI I currently use Arch Linux, one of the early adopters of systemd).

jzelinskie 13y ago
Speaking of FreeBSD, weren't they supposed to be adopting launchd? What's the progress on that?
- anaphor 13y ago
  Googling tells me that they have been working on porting it and apparently it is more or less done but not yet the default.
- dfc 13y ago
  Someone with better freebsd knowledge should chime in, but until then... It is my understanding that the launchd port was one guys google summer project, he worked on it for the summer, put it aside for a couple years and picked it up recently. The fbsd wiki on launchd: https://wiki.freebsd.org/launchd https://wiki.freebsd.org/launchd

thaumaturgy 13y ago

> it'd be a shame for people to go back to other operating systems purely because "it broke one day, something about systemd". FWIW, exactly this happened to me on an upgrade one day on another Linux distribution, after a few other headaches. The switch to systemd broke smbd/nmbd, at the time there were not yet tools for spitting the new binary log format into text, and trying to data mine that logging system to figure out what the hell broke was a real adventure. I was so skeeved I immediately dumped that and fled to Debian, because it had a reputation for stability. Imagine how excited I was when Debian voted to adopt systemd. I, also, have started looking at the BSDs again recently. herbstluftwm looks pretty nifty.

Workaphobia 13y ago

I haven't used linux on a desktop in several years, but my experience was that "it broke many days, something about everything". Why should this one component be held on a pedestal as make-or-break for the whole OS? Is a broken init daemon worse than a broken xorg.conf from a desktop user's perspective?

burntsushi 13y ago
As you said, you haven't used the Linux desktop in many years. It's come a long way in that time. For example, editing your xorg.conf is virtually a thing of the past these days. I haven't touched it in years and run a fancy triple monitor setup.
- neumann 13y ago
  right up until a ubuntu kernel update breaks the binary gpu driver, and you spend the next two days trying to figure out which binary or open source driver allows you to run everything the way you were at the beginning of the week. Repeat this every 6 months.
jafaku 13y ago
Why not give it another try now then? I have used it for years and, unlike windows, I never had to reinstall it just because something broke. And things only broke when I messed around with them, but it was always fixable. If you also use virtual machines or linux containers you will never break anything.
- Workaphobia 13y ago
  I intend to dual boot next time I upgrade laptops, so we'll see. I absolutely loved the customizability of the desktop environments. But I hated worrying about graphics drivers, updates, xorg.conf, automake, and finagling my system configuration to get source tarballs to compile.

pjmlp 13y ago

I still use multiple OS across my laptops. GNU/Linux support has improved a lot since my first installation in 1995, but it is still hit-and-miss on laptops.

fauigerzigerk 13y ago
That's exactly my experience as well.