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Absolutely, I agree, but the software update mechanism is somehow able to update or interface with that system. If you're able to jailbreak _that_, then its one

Absolutely, I agree, but the software update mechanism is somehow able to update or interface with that system. If you're able to jailbreak _that_, then its one less barrier in the way of taking over the drive control.

viraptor 13y ago
I'm sure only signed updates are allowed. Same as with intel microcode updates and most firmwares. They'd be highly irresponsible if jailbreaking was left possible.
- mikeash 13y ago
  Lots of systems are built to only allow signed updates, but bugs often allow bypassing that. If you can exploit the existing firmware, you can effectively load new ones. That's how iOS jailbreaks work despite Apple's attempt to only allow booting an Apple signed OS.
- jamesaguilar 13y ago
  Nobody intends jailbreaks to be possible. It's done through exploiting bugs. And saying it'd be highly irresponsible to write a bug is like saying it'd be irresponsible to use the bathroom. It may stink, but everyone does it.
  - viraptor 13y ago
    I'm aware these are just bugs, but there's a huge difference between iOS/android (let's keep it fairly secure, if anyone breaks it we'll release a fix... maybe, noone really cares) and car's system (probably at the level of: holy shit this cannot run untrusted code, even if that means adding trusted execution module that prevents booting if there's any unsigned byte present).
- evv 13y ago
  Sure, I agree, but what system checks the signature? A responsible engineering team would have a dedicated piece of hardware for that. For decent security, it would need to physically sit between the untrusted, internet-connected machine and the embedded hardware. Not to mention that there must be some key floating around Tesla that can be used to completely reprogram any Model S from anywhere. Its not the first time a company has needed to privately secure a key, but this time there's a lot more at stake. I wonder what the privacy success rate is for companies with highly-sought-after keys like that. Over a long period of time, the chance of a key leak has got to be pretty high.
  - viraptor 13y ago
    > For decent security, it would need to physically sit between the untrusted, internet-connected machine and the embedded hardware. TPM style solutions already exist. Keys burned into the chip + verification at boot should do most of the work. > there must be some key floating around Tesla that can be used to completely reprogram any Model S from anywhere. It could be something more interesting. A set of keys where signature requires N out of them? Even if there is some master key, they wouldn't keep it on a node connected to the network (one would hope...) Some hardware crypto-box maybe?
    - TeMPOraL 13y ago
      > Even if there is some master key, they wouldn't keep it on a node connected to the network (one would hope...) Some hardware crypto-box maybe? I imagine Elon sending the only copy to space on one of the recent SpaceX launches, so that they can deorbit it when needed, but to steal it, you'd actually have to go up there and find it ;).
- TeMPOraL 13y ago
  Jailbreaking is always possible, period. It's only matter of trying hard enough, and (un)fortunately, it's usually enough for one person to put the effort once, and then everybody can use the results.

viraptor 13y ago

I'm sure only signed updates are allowed. Same as with intel microcode updates and most firmwares. They'd be highly irresponsible if jailbreaking was left possible.

mikeash 13y ago
Lots of systems are built to only allow signed updates, but bugs often allow bypassing that. If you can exploit the existing firmware, you can effectively load new ones. That's how iOS jailbreaks work despite Apple's attempt to only allow booting an Apple signed OS.
jamesaguilar 13y ago
Nobody intends jailbreaks to be possible. It's done through exploiting bugs. And saying it'd be highly irresponsible to write a bug is like saying it'd be irresponsible to use the bathroom. It may stink, but everyone does it.
- viraptor 13y ago
  I'm aware these are just bugs, but there's a huge difference between iOS/android (let's keep it fairly secure, if anyone breaks it we'll release a fix... maybe, noone really cares) and car's system (probably at the level of: holy shit this cannot run untrusted code, even if that means adding trusted execution module that prevents booting if there's any unsigned byte present).
evv 13y ago
Sure, I agree, but what system checks the signature? A responsible engineering team would have a dedicated piece of hardware for that. For decent security, it would need to physically sit between the untrusted, internet-connected machine and the embedded hardware. Not to mention that there must be some key floating around Tesla that can be used to completely reprogram any Model S from anywhere. Its not the first time a company has needed to privately secure a key, but this time there's a lot more at stake. I wonder what the privacy success rate is for companies with highly-sought-after keys like that. Over a long period of time, the chance of a key leak has got to be pretty high.
- viraptor 13y ago
  > For decent security, it would need to physically sit between the untrusted, internet-connected machine and the embedded hardware. TPM style solutions already exist. Keys burned into the chip + verification at boot should do most of the work. > there must be some key floating around Tesla that can be used to completely reprogram any Model S from anywhere. It could be something more interesting. A set of keys where signature requires N out of them? Even if there is some master key, they wouldn't keep it on a node connected to the network (one would hope...) Some hardware crypto-box maybe?
  - TeMPOraL 13y ago
    > Even if there is some master key, they wouldn't keep it on a node connected to the network (one would hope...) Some hardware crypto-box maybe? I imagine Elon sending the only copy to space on one of the recent SpaceX launches, so that they can deorbit it when needed, but to steal it, you'd actually have to go up there and find it ;).
TeMPOraL 13y ago
Jailbreaking is always possible, period. It's only matter of trying hard enough, and (un)fortunately, it's usually enough for one person to put the effort once, and then everybody can use the results.