6 ms·

The (untrue) corollary is that if you don't have money, it must be because you aren't worthy (i.e., aren't working hard, aren't skilled, etc.). Our not-so-logi

The (untrue) corollary is that if you don't have money, it must be because you aren't worthy (i.e., aren't working hard, aren't skilled, etc.). Our not-so-logical brain jumps to strange conclusions and I think there's subconscious tension at play.

gordaco 13y ago
I think that this may be mostly an American thing. This is why in Europe we have better social systems (national health, etc): generally, we don't think the poor are people who fucked their lives up, we think that they're mostly unlucky and we should help them. This may, or may not, be one of the causes of social mobility being greater here (http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595437-america-no-less-socially-mobile-it-was-generation-ago-mobility-measured http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595437-america...). I've always disliked the American rhetoric (I'm sometimes tempted to use the word "propaganda") of being a self-made man, precisely because of this corollary.
- refurb 13y ago
  Just a quick bone to pick with your article: "In Denmark, a poor child has twice as much chance of making it to the top quintile as in America" This is a pretty bad abuse of statistics (drawing a conclusion that isn't supported). The reason why mobility looks lower is because you're measuring it in a relative way. Wealth distribution has a larger range in the US than Europe. If the top quintile in the US is $200K and in Europe it is $150K, that means someone in the US, who moves from $40K to $190K doesn't have the same mobility as a European who moves from $40K to $160K, even though the absolute gain is higher for the American. Added: Jesus Christ, I just noticed that stat is referring to the likelihood of reaching the top quintile by the time your 26. Really? 26? You're what? 8 years into a career?
  - mcv 13y ago
    The top quintile is huge, though. Our household (my wife's incoem and mine put together) makes a bit of EUR 100,000 per year, and that apparently puts us in the top 2% in Netherland. Not the top 20%. (And globally I don't doubt we're in the 1%.) The top quintile is probably closer to $80,000 or something. It's not that hard to get into if you have some talent and the right education. But what chance does a poor but talented kid in your country have to get that right education?
    - refurb 13y ago
      That's why I'm saying the statistic is somewhat misleading. The top quintile in the US starts at $101K USD/yr, while in the Netherlands you think it's $80K/yr (USD I'm assuming?). So someone in the lowest quintile in the US could jump to $90K/yr (only the 4th quintile), while the same person in the Netherlands could just to $80K/yr (top 5th quintile), but in fact the US person saw the greatest jump in personal income. Just doing some searching for income quintile in the Netherlands (I was unsuccessful!), I found this interesting tidbit: "Income fell most in the bottom income quintile in most Member States" The outcome was the same in the last recession. The poorest of the poor, in both the US and the EU, saw the largest drop in income. [1]http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Living_standards_statistics http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index....
- throwawaymsft 13y ago
  Great point. There is a general undercurrent in America that because the playing field is "level", it's your own damn fault if you aren't advancing. Social services are for the unfortunates and children, but once you're 18 if your life isn't together you deserve to be on the street. You had your chance at a good life!
  - sizzle 13y ago
    I used to believe this too before I was immersed in a hostile, inner-city environment and educated on the negative pressures involved with growing up in such environment. It really is hard to break out of an environment like that when you are held down by a certain standard of living and education must be prioritized around protecting the lives of you and your family members.
    - Dale1 13y ago
      I do believe that "success" is entirely subjective. For some people getting a full time job in the local factory is a huge achievement and the stability of that income does wonders for a family unit. For others nothing short of passing university with a first and jetting off to a glittering career is called success. For this reason I never judge anyone anymore. The human condition means they are probably doing their absolute best to get by!
      - theandrewbailey 13y ago
        While I fully agree, there are people who actively sabotage their success, like drug abusers.

gordaco 13y ago

I think that this may be mostly an American thing. This is why in Europe we have better social systems (national health, etc): generally, we don't think the poor are people who fucked their lives up, we think that they're mostly unlucky and we should help them. This may, or may not, be one of the causes of social mobility being greater here (http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595437-america-no-less-socially-mobile-it-was-generation-ago-mobility-measured http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595437-america...). I've always disliked the American rhetoric (I'm sometimes tempted to use the word "propaganda") of being a self-made man, precisely because of this corollary.

refurb 13y ago
Just a quick bone to pick with your article: "In Denmark, a poor child has twice as much chance of making it to the top quintile as in America" This is a pretty bad abuse of statistics (drawing a conclusion that isn't supported). The reason why mobility looks lower is because you're measuring it in a relative way. Wealth distribution has a larger range in the US than Europe. If the top quintile in the US is $200K and in Europe it is $150K, that means someone in the US, who moves from $40K to $190K doesn't have the same mobility as a European who moves from $40K to $160K, even though the absolute gain is higher for the American. Added: Jesus Christ, I just noticed that stat is referring to the likelihood of reaching the top quintile by the time your 26. Really? 26? You're what? 8 years into a career?
- mcv 13y ago
  The top quintile is huge, though. Our household (my wife's incoem and mine put together) makes a bit of EUR 100,000 per year, and that apparently puts us in the top 2% in Netherland. Not the top 20%. (And globally I don't doubt we're in the 1%.) The top quintile is probably closer to $80,000 or something. It's not that hard to get into if you have some talent and the right education. But what chance does a poor but talented kid in your country have to get that right education?
  - refurb 13y ago
    That's why I'm saying the statistic is somewhat misleading. The top quintile in the US starts at $101K USD/yr, while in the Netherlands you think it's $80K/yr (USD I'm assuming?). So someone in the lowest quintile in the US could jump to $90K/yr (only the 4th quintile), while the same person in the Netherlands could just to $80K/yr (top 5th quintile), but in fact the US person saw the greatest jump in personal income. Just doing some searching for income quintile in the Netherlands (I was unsuccessful!), I found this interesting tidbit: "Income fell most in the bottom income quintile in most Member States" The outcome was the same in the last recession. The poorest of the poor, in both the US and the EU, saw the largest drop in income. [1]http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Living_standards_statistics http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index....
throwawaymsft 13y ago
Great point. There is a general undercurrent in America that because the playing field is "level", it's your own damn fault if you aren't advancing. Social services are for the unfortunates and children, but once you're 18 if your life isn't together you deserve to be on the street. You had your chance at a good life!
- sizzle 13y ago
  I used to believe this too before I was immersed in a hostile, inner-city environment and educated on the negative pressures involved with growing up in such environment. It really is hard to break out of an environment like that when you are held down by a certain standard of living and education must be prioritized around protecting the lives of you and your family members.
  - Dale1 13y ago
    I do believe that "success" is entirely subjective. For some people getting a full time job in the local factory is a huge achievement and the stability of that income does wonders for a family unit. For others nothing short of passing university with a first and jetting off to a glittering career is called success. For this reason I never judge anyone anymore. The human condition means they are probably doing their absolute best to get by!
    - theandrewbailey 13y ago
      While I fully agree, there are people who actively sabotage their success, like drug abusers.