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I've never met a COBOL programmer. The only times I've seen actual COBOL code have been examples to show how inscrutable it can be (like the example in the art

by AndrewO 17y ago

I've never met a COBOL programmer. The only times I've seen actual COBOL code have been examples to show how inscrutable it can be (like the example in the article). I haven't seen any open source software written in COBOL, although I'm sure there has to be something. Yet, I know COBOLers are out there. Given the fact that COBOL refuses to die and not for lack of other options, I've always assumed there's something that kept these guys going. I used to think it was just hard-headedness ("Haven't these guys heard of Python or Ruby or even like Java or .Net or something?!?!"), but age and experience have lead me to believe that it probably has something to do with the size of the paycheck. So I'd really like to know: Do COBOLers have a community of any sort? Where do they go for help? Do they read HN or proggit (or do they have their own portals that only run on green screens)? What keeps them going (and do they actually despise their language but just suck it up)? Are they locked away in the dungeons of enterprise IT departments (or are they more like the wizards in a tower)? Is there some sort of annual conference where they all meet and dance in front of a bonfire (lit from the heat of their mainframes) and sacrifice young virginal (pure? dynamic?) OO or functional languages to keep their own alive?

DrJokepu 17y ago
Of course there are open source software written in COBOL! It's not the first time I have to post a link on Hacker News to COBOL's Ruby on Rail equivalent, COBOL ON COGS: http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM It is a great framework built around the new super-awesome REPORT-HOST-TERMINAL pattern!
davidw 17y ago
> What keeps them going Switching costs. Perhaps long time readers find my recommendations for this book tedious, but 'Information Rules' is a great read and explains why lots of things like this work the way they do: http://www.amazon.com/dp/087584863X?tag=dedasys-20 http://www.amazon.com/dp/087584863X?tag=dedasys-20
ryansloan 17y ago
I worked as a COBOL programmer for two years (well, technically I did 2 summer internships and two short winter stints) so I have a little insight into the "community." I worked at a (successful) company that develops banking software and processes bank data. The majority of our data processing and operations codebase was written in COBOL, running on some Unisys mainframes. There is a growing population of .NET developers on the team, but for the most part the cube farm is full of COBOL programmers. In general they don't read HN, use StackOverflow, or any other online community that I'm aware of. For the most part, when they need support they ask one of the local dinosaurs. I have noticed that most of them don't use their career to define themselves like a lot of "modern" programmers (myself included) do. I think it's more of a 9-5 for them. And they don't seem to hate COBOL, either. In fact, a lot of them like it. I think part of the reason is that it's one of the first languages they were exposed to, and one of the first mainframe-based languages that "made sense." It really is everywhere (although 80% seems high), but you don't usually find it in any of the glamorized jobs. It's heavily used in the banking, healthcare, insurance, and payroll industries. I'm still working for the same company, but I'm doing .NET stuff now.
- AndrewO 17y ago
  In your opinion, why do you think they stay away from HN or Stack Overflow? Is it just that there's nothing there for them specifically or would you say that they're (on average) less interested in the wider programming ecosystem?
  - wooby 17y ago
    I'm not sure this kind of entrenchment is endemic of COBOL programmers specifically. I knew plenty of people in college who, once they knew Java, were perfectly content with their ability to program, and will probably be happily employed for the foreseeable future. I think it just boils down to the difference between the 9am-5pm'ers and the 5pm-9am'ers.
  - ryansloan 17y ago
    I think it's a combination of factors. The obvious factor is that there is no COBOL content there. These communities tend to be focused on new and developing technologies, which aren't really relevant to their work most of the time. I think the less obvious factor is related to the COBOL mentality. In COBOL's heyday, they didn't have communities like this (yeah yeah, usenet, BBS, I know, I know) so they figured out how to live without them. The old whitehaired COBOL gurus passed these traditions down, and it just became a way of life. Any COBOL-related help you need can probably be provided by the lifer in the cube down the aisle. They are a fairly self-sufficient group. That being said, I am interested to see how the COBOL community changes when people from my generation start taking these jobs. I didn't stop reading when I was hired, and I don't think that most of the others will, either.

by AndrewO 17y ago

DrJokepu 17y ago

Of course there are open source software written in COBOL! It's not the first time I have to post a link on Hacker News to COBOL's Ruby on Rail equivalent, COBOL ON COGS: http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM It is a great framework built around the new super-awesome REPORT-HOST-TERMINAL pattern!

davidw 17y ago

> What keeps them going Switching costs. Perhaps long time readers find my recommendations for this book tedious, but 'Information Rules' is a great read and explains why lots of things like this work the way they do: http://www.amazon.com/dp/087584863X?tag=dedasys-20 http://www.amazon.com/dp/087584863X?tag=dedasys-20

ryansloan 17y ago

I worked as a COBOL programmer for two years (well, technically I did 2 summer internships and two short winter stints) so I have a little insight into the "community." I worked at a (successful) company that develops banking software and processes bank data. The majority of our data processing and operations codebase was written in COBOL, running on some Unisys mainframes. There is a growing population of .NET developers on the team, but for the most part the cube farm is full of COBOL programmers. In general they don't read HN, use StackOverflow, or any other online community that I'm aware of. For the most part, when they need support they ask one of the local dinosaurs. I have noticed that most of them don't use their career to define themselves like a lot of "modern" programmers (myself included) do. I think it's more of a 9-5 for them. And they don't seem to hate COBOL, either. In fact, a lot of them like it. I think part of the reason is that it's one of the first languages they were exposed to, and one of the first mainframe-based languages that "made sense." It really is everywhere (although 80% seems high), but you don't usually find it in any of the glamorized jobs. It's heavily used in the banking, healthcare, insurance, and payroll industries. I'm still working for the same company, but I'm doing .NET stuff now.

AndrewO 17y ago
In your opinion, why do you think they stay away from HN or Stack Overflow? Is it just that there's nothing there for them specifically or would you say that they're (on average) less interested in the wider programming ecosystem?
- wooby 17y ago
  I'm not sure this kind of entrenchment is endemic of COBOL programmers specifically. I knew plenty of people in college who, once they knew Java, were perfectly content with their ability to program, and will probably be happily employed for the foreseeable future. I think it just boils down to the difference between the 9am-5pm'ers and the 5pm-9am'ers.
- ryansloan 17y ago
  I think it's a combination of factors. The obvious factor is that there is no COBOL content there. These communities tend to be focused on new and developing technologies, which aren't really relevant to their work most of the time. I think the less obvious factor is related to the COBOL mentality. In COBOL's heyday, they didn't have communities like this (yeah yeah, usenet, BBS, I know, I know) so they figured out how to live without them. The old whitehaired COBOL gurus passed these traditions down, and it just became a way of life. Any COBOL-related help you need can probably be provided by the lifer in the cube down the aisle. They are a fairly self-sufficient group. That being said, I am interested to see how the COBOL community changes when people from my generation start taking these jobs. I didn't stop reading when I was hired, and I don't think that most of the others will, either.