5 ms·

This is stupid. Progressiveness and open-mindedness go BOTH WAYS. You have to be tolerant of people with different perspectives, or you can't call yourself prog

by m52go 13y ago

This is stupid. Progressiveness and open-mindedness go BOTH WAYS. You have to be tolerant of people with different perspectives, or you can't call yourself progressive. I don't personally agree with the stance Eich took politically, but making him step down as CEO of a company he is more than fully qualified to run? Because you don't agree with his views on gay marriage? Are you kidding me? Ludicrous. This is a huge step backward.

zobzu 13y ago
note: it's his personal decision, not mozilla's
- trothoun 13y ago
  If this really was his personal decision, then he would have written the press release, and the chairwoman would have issued a press release expressing support.
  - zobzu 13y ago
    that's if they were aware he was leaving. occured to you he might just have sent and email, published a blog post and left? ;-)
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- honksillet 13y ago
  He might have thought that it was strategically better for him personally to step down instead of actually being fire, but no one believes that this was just his personal decision. He was forced out under duress.
- forgottenpass 13y ago
  Yup, but the decision he probably had to make was to save face and leave or get booted the fuck out.
ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
So, should people have been tolerant of bigoted Southerners who supported Jim Crow? Should civil rights leaders have been tolerant of their views?
- __abc 13y ago
  Jim Crow and freedom of speech are two different things. I personally am ALL FOR equality independent of race, religion, or sexual orientation. I don't care what you do with your life. I do believe people should be equal, and laws against that should be abolished, but that's my opinion. That's why we have voting and elected officials. More importantly, democracy is also about being allowed to place dollars and votes in what YOU believe in independent of the current "accepted norms". It's not WRONG for someone to vote against equality, that's their right .... at least in this country.
  - gress 13y ago
    Nobody has suppressed Eich's freedom of speech.
- fiblye 13y ago
  There's a difference between tolerating the viewpoint and tolerating the person. While a person may have archaic and bigoted views, forcing them to change only makes them more steadfast in their opinions. The reason there's been such a shift public perception of LGBT people these past few years is because more people are coming out and proving they're decent, normal people. Pressuring conservatives to quit their job for one political view only reinforces their opinion of X group trying to destroy Y tradition, and if this turns into a trend, I can imagine more organizations similar to Westboro Baptist Church sprouting up. In situations like this, "killing them with kindness" really is the answer.
- vixen99 13y ago
  What a crass comparison. "He said that his beliefs would not change the way he managed the company or how employees were treated at Mozilla. “I’m supporting all of the same benefits we’ve always supported across L.G.B.T. equality,” he said." The episode is sickening.
jonahx 13y ago
Ah yes, the old "if you're truly tolerant you will even tolerate intolerance and hate" argument, a perennial favorite among bigots and those looking to distinguish themselves by their courageous adherence to "logic" in the face of social norms, but who have never been the target of intolerance themselves.
- marshray 13y ago
  It is disingenuous to equate a reluctance to change society's ancient definition of marriage with "intolerance and hate".
  - arrrg 13y ago
    Not really, no. Hate may be problematic, intolerance certainly not.
  - usefulcat 13y ago
    That perspective fails to address the issue of whether LGBT individuals are entitled to equal rights under the law, regardless of what name is used (e.g., "marriage", "civil union", whatever). Not to say that the name doesn't matter ("marriage" vs. "civil union"--separate but equal?), but there's definitely more going on here than just a semantic disagreement.
- m52go 13y ago
  The guy was supposed to run Mozilla, not a government. Don't lose sight of the context. Does donating to a political campaign now mean you are hateful and intolerant of the people on the opposing side of your campaign? People are taking his actions out of context out of their own hatred for people with views different from theirs.
  - lhc- 13y ago
    This wasn't like donating to a politician who you agree with one on issue, who happens to have other views that you might not. He donated to a campaign with a singular goal, opposing equal rights for gay people. Hatred isn't a word I would use, but it does suggest a level of disrespect and arrogance toward the other side.
ryanobjc 13y ago
So, openmindedness to you means... Supporting female genital mutilation Racism Homophobia And much more Are you sure you want to take that stand? Isn't that like doubling down on segregation in 1970?
camus2 13y ago
> This is stupid. Progressiveness and open-mindedness go BOTH WAYS. no it doesnt.Or conservative would be progressive.
benched 13y ago
Do you even know that you are playing meaningless word games, of the form, "This statement is a lie" or "atheism is a religion"? You really think that "In order to be tolerant, you have to tolerate intolerance!" is a good argument, and not just self-referential verbal nonsense?
- m52go 13y ago
  He wasn't saying "I hate gay people." He was saying "the institution of marriage shouldn't include gay people." That isn't cool, fine, but it's NOT the blanket 'hatred' and 'intolerance' everyone here is so adamant about. Those terms are being tossed around too freely here.
  - benched 13y ago
    Ok. Sorry. We'll all use the exact right level of rhetoric from now on.
kzahel 13y ago
I'm frankly surprised that more people don't share your point of view. I am personally for gay rights and gay marriage and the such but I a can also respect that people will have different views about the matter and that I don't assume that I am right and anyone with different views from mine is morally corrupt or evil, etc. That's intolerant.
javert 13y ago
Open-mindedness and tolerance are not core Progressive values. I don't say this cynically, it's just a fact. So Progressives only preach them when it works in their favor.
- mpyne 13y ago
  > So Progressives only preach them when it works in their favor. Yes, it certainly seemed like "open-mindedness" and "tolerance" were some of the watchwords from progressives a decade back when supporting gay marriage was political poison. It's a pity the same standards aren't upheld when the tables have turned.
jacalata 13y ago
Progressive doesn't mean "everything is cool man". It means "racism is not cool, sexism is not cool, being a bigoted asshole is not cool".

by m52go 13y ago

zobzu 13y ago

note: it's his personal decision, not mozilla's

trothoun 13y ago
If this really was his personal decision, then he would have written the press release, and the chairwoman would have issued a press release expressing support.
- zobzu 13y ago
  that's if they were aware he was leaving. occured to you he might just have sent and email, published a blog post and left? ;-)
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
honksillet 13y ago
He might have thought that it was strategically better for him personally to step down instead of actually being fire, but no one believes that this was just his personal decision. He was forced out under duress.
forgottenpass 13y ago
Yup, but the decision he probably had to make was to save face and leave or get booted the fuck out.

ZanyProgrammer 13y ago

So, should people have been tolerant of bigoted Southerners who supported Jim Crow? Should civil rights leaders have been tolerant of their views?

__abc 13y ago
Jim Crow and freedom of speech are two different things. I personally am ALL FOR equality independent of race, religion, or sexual orientation. I don't care what you do with your life. I do believe people should be equal, and laws against that should be abolished, but that's my opinion. That's why we have voting and elected officials. More importantly, democracy is also about being allowed to place dollars and votes in what YOU believe in independent of the current "accepted norms". It's not WRONG for someone to vote against equality, that's their right .... at least in this country.
- gress 13y ago
  Nobody has suppressed Eich's freedom of speech.
fiblye 13y ago
There's a difference between tolerating the viewpoint and tolerating the person. While a person may have archaic and bigoted views, forcing them to change only makes them more steadfast in their opinions. The reason there's been such a shift public perception of LGBT people these past few years is because more people are coming out and proving they're decent, normal people. Pressuring conservatives to quit their job for one political view only reinforces their opinion of X group trying to destroy Y tradition, and if this turns into a trend, I can imagine more organizations similar to Westboro Baptist Church sprouting up. In situations like this, "killing them with kindness" really is the answer.
vixen99 13y ago
What a crass comparison. "He said that his beliefs would not change the way he managed the company or how employees were treated at Mozilla. “I’m supporting all of the same benefits we’ve always supported across L.G.B.T. equality,” he said." The episode is sickening.

jonahx 13y ago

Ah yes, the old "if you're truly tolerant you will even tolerate intolerance and hate" argument, a perennial favorite among bigots and those looking to distinguish themselves by their courageous adherence to "logic" in the face of social norms, but who have never been the target of intolerance themselves.

marshray 13y ago
It is disingenuous to equate a reluctance to change society's ancient definition of marriage with "intolerance and hate".
- arrrg 13y ago
  Not really, no. Hate may be problematic, intolerance certainly not.
- usefulcat 13y ago
  That perspective fails to address the issue of whether LGBT individuals are entitled to equal rights under the law, regardless of what name is used (e.g., "marriage", "civil union", whatever). Not to say that the name doesn't matter ("marriage" vs. "civil union"--separate but equal?), but there's definitely more going on here than just a semantic disagreement.
m52go 13y ago
The guy was supposed to run Mozilla, not a government. Don't lose sight of the context. Does donating to a political campaign now mean you are hateful and intolerant of the people on the opposing side of your campaign? People are taking his actions out of context out of their own hatred for people with views different from theirs.
- lhc- 13y ago
  This wasn't like donating to a politician who you agree with one on issue, who happens to have other views that you might not. He donated to a campaign with a singular goal, opposing equal rights for gay people. Hatred isn't a word I would use, but it does suggest a level of disrespect and arrogance toward the other side.

ryanobjc 13y ago

So, openmindedness to you means... Supporting female genital mutilation Racism Homophobia And much more Are you sure you want to take that stand? Isn't that like doubling down on segregation in 1970?

camus2 13y ago

> This is stupid. Progressiveness and open-mindedness go BOTH WAYS. no it doesnt.Or conservative would be progressive.

benched 13y ago

Do you even know that you are playing meaningless word games, of the form, "This statement is a lie" or "atheism is a religion"? You really think that "In order to be tolerant, you have to tolerate intolerance!" is a good argument, and not just self-referential verbal nonsense?

m52go 13y ago
He wasn't saying "I hate gay people." He was saying "the institution of marriage shouldn't include gay people." That isn't cool, fine, but it's NOT the blanket 'hatred' and 'intolerance' everyone here is so adamant about. Those terms are being tossed around too freely here.
- benched 13y ago
  Ok. Sorry. We'll all use the exact right level of rhetoric from now on.

kzahel 13y ago

I'm frankly surprised that more people don't share your point of view. I am personally for gay rights and gay marriage and the such but I a can also respect that people will have different views about the matter and that I don't assume that I am right and anyone with different views from mine is morally corrupt or evil, etc. That's intolerant.

javert 13y ago

Open-mindedness and tolerance are not core Progressive values. I don't say this cynically, it's just a fact. So Progressives only preach them when it works in their favor.

mpyne 13y ago
> So Progressives only preach them when it works in their favor. Yes, it certainly seemed like "open-mindedness" and "tolerance" were some of the watchwords from progressives a decade back when supporting gay marriage was political poison. It's a pity the same standards aren't upheld when the tables have turned.

jacalata 13y ago

Progressive doesn't mean "everything is cool man". It means "racism is not cool, sexism is not cool, being a bigoted asshole is not cool".