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Yes! Everyone should have the opportunity to learn in an environment where they feel empowered and understood. How does this project do anything except furthe

by jfarmer 13y ago

Yes! Everyone should have the opportunity to learn in an environment where they feel empowered and understood. How does this project do anything except further the goal? The GP's comment was not saying that an all-girls camp would be sunshine and unicorns. It was saying that one particular environment made them feel small and disempowered as a girl and that an experience like Girls Who Code would appeal to them for that reason.

facepalm 13y ago
But the unspoken claim is that all events with a lot of men are unbearable for women (and decent people). Sure if some girl wants to go to girls only camp, whatever. Although it seems a bit unfair that the same wouldn't be granted for boys. I'm waiting how this plays out in 10 years. Either it'll fail because a majority of women simply don't want to code. Or there will be women-only companies desperate to hire men. There would be a slight difference in the women only companies likely having started out as women only deliberately, so I think working as the only man for an all women company might be even more unattractive than the opposite thing.
- nmrm 13y ago
  The 20th century is replete with examples of women entering traditionally male professional roles. None of these industries is hostile toward men; in fact, often the opposite. The scenario you suggest as plausible is in fact quite unprecedented. What makes Computer Science so different from all these other fields and professions?
  - facepalm 13y ago
    I'd say most industries are as hostile to men as they are to women. Books about the sickness of organizations are plentiful. I don't understand your question about "what is different about computer science". I tell you what is different: you don't have to crawl in the mud for computer science, and there are a couple of overblown stories about IT billionaires having parties in fancy offices. There are fewer stories about cubicles in the cellar. Edit: were you referring to the all-women IT company? They do exist now. And there are plenty of organizations organizing women only IT events for women. Like RailsGirls. So if they are successful, why wouldn't they lead to more women only IT companies?
    - nmrm 13y ago
      > were you referring to the all-women IT company? They do exist now. And there are plenty of organizations organizing women only IT events for women. I was referring the conclusion that these events/organizations significantly harm men. > So if they are successful, why wouldn't they lead to more women only IT companies? Because the whole of 20th century labor history, which is replete with counter-examples. Women supporting other women in male-dominated professions, as a matter of observable fact, does not generally lead to discrimination against men in the work place.
      - facepalm 13y ago
        Where there many "women only" initiatives for male-dominated professions? "Girl Engineers" or what? The discrimination is already happening with the women only events. Why should it suddenly stop afterwards? Especially since these are women who seem to be uncomfortable around men. Why should they then hire men into their IT company?
- jfarmer 13y ago
  > But the unspoken claim is that all events with a lot of men are unbearable for women (and decent people). How sensitive would you say you are to what women find bearable? How do you know?
  - facepalm 13y ago
    What does it matter? Can you speak for all women? And for all men?
    - jfarmer 13y ago
      No, but when they say they're feeling something I'll do my level best believe it and try to understand it before minimizing it.
      - facepalm 13y ago
        I'm not minimizing anything. The OP was a man who happened to not be into gaming and puberty. My point was that boys who are in puberty and like gaming should nevertheless get their summer camps. I'm not interested in football. I guess that makes all male dominated professions hostile to me, because men like to talk about football. It's so unfair.

by jfarmer 13y ago

facepalm 13y ago

But the unspoken claim is that all events with a lot of men are unbearable for women (and decent people). Sure if some girl wants to go to girls only camp, whatever. Although it seems a bit unfair that the same wouldn't be granted for boys. I'm waiting how this plays out in 10 years. Either it'll fail because a majority of women simply don't want to code. Or there will be women-only companies desperate to hire men. There would be a slight difference in the women only companies likely having started out as women only deliberately, so I think working as the only man for an all women company might be even more unattractive than the opposite thing.

nmrm 13y ago
The 20th century is replete with examples of women entering traditionally male professional roles. None of these industries is hostile toward men; in fact, often the opposite. The scenario you suggest as plausible is in fact quite unprecedented. What makes Computer Science so different from all these other fields and professions?
- facepalm 13y ago
  I'd say most industries are as hostile to men as they are to women. Books about the sickness of organizations are plentiful. I don't understand your question about "what is different about computer science". I tell you what is different: you don't have to crawl in the mud for computer science, and there are a couple of overblown stories about IT billionaires having parties in fancy offices. There are fewer stories about cubicles in the cellar. Edit: were you referring to the all-women IT company? They do exist now. And there are plenty of organizations organizing women only IT events for women. Like RailsGirls. So if they are successful, why wouldn't they lead to more women only IT companies?
  - nmrm 13y ago
    > were you referring to the all-women IT company? They do exist now. And there are plenty of organizations organizing women only IT events for women. I was referring the conclusion that these events/organizations significantly harm men. > So if they are successful, why wouldn't they lead to more women only IT companies? Because the whole of 20th century labor history, which is replete with counter-examples. Women supporting other women in male-dominated professions, as a matter of observable fact, does not generally lead to discrimination against men in the work place.
    - facepalm 13y ago
      Where there many "women only" initiatives for male-dominated professions? "Girl Engineers" or what? The discrimination is already happening with the women only events. Why should it suddenly stop afterwards? Especially since these are women who seem to be uncomfortable around men. Why should they then hire men into their IT company?
jfarmer 13y ago
> But the unspoken claim is that all events with a lot of men are unbearable for women (and decent people). How sensitive would you say you are to what women find bearable? How do you know?
- facepalm 13y ago
  What does it matter? Can you speak for all women? And for all men?
  - jfarmer 13y ago
    No, but when they say they're feeling something I'll do my level best believe it and try to understand it before minimizing it.
    - facepalm 13y ago
      I'm not minimizing anything. The OP was a man who happened to not be into gaming and puberty. My point was that boys who are in puberty and like gaming should nevertheless get their summer camps. I'm not interested in football. I guess that makes all male dominated professions hostile to me, because men like to talk about football. It's so unfair.