4 ms·

What evidence is there that he's a "homophobe"? 7 million other Californians also voted for Prop 8. Does that make them all homophobes?

oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
Either homophobes, or very misguided. All the evidence points towards Eich falling in the former camp, unfortunately. To recap: "Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). It can be expressed as antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, or hatred, may be based on irrational fear, and is sometimes related to religious beliefs." It's pretty clear to me that campaigning to prevent homosexuals from enjoying the same rights as heterosexuals falls under this definition.
- kirkbackus 13y ago
  The problem with the word "homophobia" is that it tells us almost nothing about a person. Not only does it include people who have negative attitudes toward the people, it also includes people who have a negative attitude towards homosexuality. There is a major difference here: a person and lifestyle are NOT the same thing. Someone who does not like homosexuality can have a positive attitude toward homosexuals. The Wikipedia definition of "homophobia" is just a straw man fallacy waiting to happen.
  - oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
    By "negative attitude towards homosexuality" are you talking specifically about the sexual act? Because, if so, I don't see anyone arguing that heterosexual couples who engage in anal sex should not be allowed to marry.
    - kirkbackus 13y ago
      This is a red herring for I was not talking specifically. My main point was "a person and lifestyle are NOT the same thing" regarding the negative attitudes in the wikipedia definition of "homophobia".
Jtsummers 13y ago
By today's hyperexagerrated language, yes.
peteretep 13y ago
> Does that make them all homophobes? What's your alternative explanation?
- blisterpeanuts 13y ago
  My explanation? That they were in favor of what the Proposition actually was, i.e. insertion of the following language into the state constitution: "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California" I don't think a supporter of such a clause is automatically a "homophobe". It might just be that the proponents did not wish to make same-sex marriage an institutional reality. That's not an infringement of gay rights so much as an expansion of gay rights. Note that I'm not taking a personal stand either way, but I do dispute that it was correct to demonize Eich (and millions of others) who support the traditional definition of marriage. There's no evidence that Eich or anyone else sought to actively discriminate against gays.
  - peteretep 13y ago
    Out of interest, had the language been "only marriage between a man and a woman of the same color is valid or recognized in California", would you have said supporters of it were racists?
    - hackinthebochs 13y ago
      This analogy is broken. There is nothing of substance that distinguishes people of different races that could rationally preclude them from getting married. There is a substantive difference between the sexes that could rationally limit what combination should be allowed to get married. The former opinion can only be caused by racism. The latter could have a few different sources besides "homophobia".
      - peteretep 13y ago
        > There is a substantive difference between the sexes > that could rationally limit what combination should > be allowed to get married Interesting. Could you expand on what those differences are, that might yield rational reasons? Also, please could you let me know if they extend to: couples where one or both are infertile; couples where one or both partners have a genetic intersex conditions, such as Klinefelter syndrome; couples where one or both partners had gender reassignment shortly after birth due to medical intervention; couples where both partners are living as men, but one was born female, but no surgery has been performed; as the before, but surgery has occurred; couples where medical accident has led to removal of genitalia; completely asexual male/female couples who have decided they wish to live together and support each other. Also any links to your research in this area.
buuda 13y ago
Yes, it does. Many millions of Americans supported slavery/Jim Crow as well. People were voting against the rights of gays even though the right for same-sex couples to marry had no effect on them personally.
jackmaney 13y ago
Yes. Yes, it does.
metaphorm 13y ago
yes, actually. not all homophobes are virulent, frothing-at-the-mouth gay bashers who use the word "faggot" a lot. mostly its a pervasive attitude that homosexual relationships are "abnormal" or "ungodly" or something like that. its homophobic to feel that way, even if you're polite in public when discussing it.
- tommorris 13y ago
  It's the socially respectable homophobes in the suits and ties that politicians and people in power listen to, not the thugs shouting "cocksucker!" at people coming out of bars.
LeoNatan25 13y ago
It does indeed.
rodgerd 13y ago
Tens of millions of Americans supported anti-miscegination laws. It certainly made them racists.
meowface 13y ago
>Does that make them all homophobes? It does.

oneeyedpigeon 13y ago

Either homophobes, or very misguided. All the evidence points towards Eich falling in the former camp, unfortunately. To recap: "Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). It can be expressed as antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, or hatred, may be based on irrational fear, and is sometimes related to religious beliefs." It's pretty clear to me that campaigning to prevent homosexuals from enjoying the same rights as heterosexuals falls under this definition.

kirkbackus 13y ago
The problem with the word "homophobia" is that it tells us almost nothing about a person. Not only does it include people who have negative attitudes toward the people, it also includes people who have a negative attitude towards homosexuality. There is a major difference here: a person and lifestyle are NOT the same thing. Someone who does not like homosexuality can have a positive attitude toward homosexuals. The Wikipedia definition of "homophobia" is just a straw man fallacy waiting to happen.
- oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
  By "negative attitude towards homosexuality" are you talking specifically about the sexual act? Because, if so, I don't see anyone arguing that heterosexual couples who engage in anal sex should not be allowed to marry.
  - kirkbackus 13y ago
    This is a red herring for I was not talking specifically. My main point was "a person and lifestyle are NOT the same thing" regarding the negative attitudes in the wikipedia definition of "homophobia".

Jtsummers 13y ago

By today's hyperexagerrated language, yes.

peteretep 13y ago

> Does that make them all homophobes? What's your alternative explanation?

blisterpeanuts 13y ago
My explanation? That they were in favor of what the Proposition actually was, i.e. insertion of the following language into the state constitution: "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California" I don't think a supporter of such a clause is automatically a "homophobe". It might just be that the proponents did not wish to make same-sex marriage an institutional reality. That's not an infringement of gay rights so much as an expansion of gay rights. Note that I'm not taking a personal stand either way, but I do dispute that it was correct to demonize Eich (and millions of others) who support the traditional definition of marriage. There's no evidence that Eich or anyone else sought to actively discriminate against gays.
- peteretep 13y ago
  Out of interest, had the language been "only marriage between a man and a woman of the same color is valid or recognized in California", would you have said supporters of it were racists?
  - hackinthebochs 13y ago
    This analogy is broken. There is nothing of substance that distinguishes people of different races that could rationally preclude them from getting married. There is a substantive difference between the sexes that could rationally limit what combination should be allowed to get married. The former opinion can only be caused by racism. The latter could have a few different sources besides "homophobia".
    - peteretep 13y ago
      > There is a substantive difference between the sexes > that could rationally limit what combination should > be allowed to get married Interesting. Could you expand on what those differences are, that might yield rational reasons? Also, please could you let me know if they extend to: couples where one or both are infertile; couples where one or both partners have a genetic intersex conditions, such as Klinefelter syndrome; couples where one or both partners had gender reassignment shortly after birth due to medical intervention; couples where both partners are living as men, but one was born female, but no surgery has been performed; as the before, but surgery has occurred; couples where medical accident has led to removal of genitalia; completely asexual male/female couples who have decided they wish to live together and support each other. Also any links to your research in this area.

buuda 13y ago

Yes, it does. Many millions of Americans supported slavery/Jim Crow as well. People were voting against the rights of gays even though the right for same-sex couples to marry had no effect on them personally.

jackmaney 13y ago

Yes. Yes, it does.

metaphorm 13y ago

yes, actually. not all homophobes are virulent, frothing-at-the-mouth gay bashers who use the word "faggot" a lot. mostly its a pervasive attitude that homosexual relationships are "abnormal" or "ungodly" or something like that. its homophobic to feel that way, even if you're polite in public when discussing it.

tommorris 13y ago
It's the socially respectable homophobes in the suits and ties that politicians and people in power listen to, not the thugs shouting "cocksucker!" at people coming out of bars.

LeoNatan25 13y ago

It does indeed.

rodgerd 13y ago

Tens of millions of Americans supported anti-miscegination laws. It certainly made them racists.

meowface 13y ago

>Does that make them all homophobes? It does.