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This really saddens me. It is a black-mark on the gay rights movement. Eich made a mistake when he supported prop 8. History will clearly show this, like hist
by Touche 13y ago
This really saddens me.
It is a black-mark on the gay rights movement.
Eich made a mistake when he supported prop 8. History will clearly show this, like history has shown those who opposed interracial marriage were wrong.
Being on the right-side of history isn't about stomping out those who opposed you when you finally win. It's not about retribution for past slights.
Did we learn nothing from Nelson Mandela?
- koof 13y agoWould you call someone being removed from a position of power "stomping out"? Eich can and will still live a decent life and nobody in their right mind is denying him his right to that, but remember that he did seek to deny those rights to others.
- camus2 13y ago> Eich made a mistake when he supported prop 8 Nothing proves that Eich think he did make a mistake. He never apologized for that and refused to talk about it.I'm sure he would not need to resign if he did apologize. People make mistakes, and most people will forgive if an apology is issued.
- Touche 13y agoIt doesn't matter what Eich thinks. History isn't going to reverse course so there's no need for those who are wrong to fall to their knees and beg for forgiveness. Being graceful in victory is about letting those who opposed you to get away with their mistake.
- OpieCunningham 13y agoHow many lives need to be ruined before an oppressed community can fight back? Sainthood should not be a bar that everyone must meet in order to avoid being labeled with a black mark. This guy attacked a large group of people and that group defended itself by explaining their displeasure at his recent privilege. He then suffered the consequence of having his privilege removed. Good.
- Touche 13y ago> How many lives need to be ruined before an oppressed community can fight back? The oppressed already did fight back and won. This is putting your enemies on trial afterwards.
- OpieCunningham 13y agoThe oppressed have already won? No, I don't think so. I do not see any reality to a claim that the gay community is not actively oppressed. Perhaps you mean the gay community is sufficiently less oppressed that it should stop defending itself. Then how few lives need to be ruined for that qualification to take effect?
- Touche 13y agoI mean that prop 8, the thing Eich supported, was overruled. Anti-gay marriage laws are being overturned across the country. No, not every injustice has been thwarted. But Eich isn't responsible for every injustice, just the one he participated in. He is not, to my knowledge, actively oppressing anyone today. I asked someone else this elsewhere in this topic and I'll ask you the same: What is the victory here? What does this change, positively for the cause of equality? And I ask again, how did Mandela treat his opponents after his cause was won, and why do we not strive for those standards?
- OpieCunningham 13y agoI mean that prop 8, the thing Eich supported, was overruled. Anti-gay marriage laws are being overturned across the country. That's precisely a definition of "sufficiently". The group is still oppressed, so there has been no victory. Your argument is that the group is winning and should therefore stop fighting. Eich isn't responsible for every injustice, just the one he participated in. He is not, to my knowledge, actively oppressing anyone today. Eich is a member of the group of oppressors. He had an opportunity (yesterday) to claim his role with that group was a mistake - he refused to state that. Therefore he is actively oppressing the group. If he had believed he had made a mistake and believably made that declaration, there is a very strong probability that the oppressed group would have accepted his admission and he would have kept his privilege. This happens all the time with public figures - even those whose admission of a mistake are questionably believable. I asked someone else this elsewhere in this topic and I'll ask you the same: What is the victory here? What does this change, positively for the cause of equality? The victory is the message to all others: if you oppress people, those people will defend themselves and you may suffer a lose of privilege. It is exactly this approach which incentivizes people to question their own beliefs, how and whether those beliefs adversely effect other groups and provides the opportunity for self-growth. If there are never any consequences to oppressing people, no one will ever reassess their oppressive beliefs. And I ask again, how did Mandela treat his opponents after his cause was won, and why do we not strive for those standards? Firstly, your comparison is far off mark. Mandela's cause was won - the oppressed were now in a position where they had complete power. That is not the case with an oppressor who recently received the privilege of being appointed CEO and the still-oppressed gay community - in addition, Mandela's situation involved life and death, not privileges. Secondly, I've already stated that sainthood should not be the minimum bar required to avoid being looked down upon. Defense is a perfectly acceptable course of action when you are being attacked. Turning the other cheek should not be the minimally accepted path.
- matthewmacleod 13y agoEich made a mistake when he supported prop 8. He actively avoided apologising for his support of prop 8 – a law which is directly opposed to the values of Mozilla as an organisation. Had he done so, I suspect there would have been much less backlash.
- muyuu 13y agoWhy should he apologise if he believes he's in the right? That's just pushing hypocrisy.
- matthewmacleod 13y agoIf he firmly held the belief, and did not change his mind, then he shouldn't apologise. In that case, it's legitimate to complain about his personal views where they are not compatible with his position.
- clavalle 13y agoI don't think people are advocating for him to apologize while still believing he is correct. I think people are advocating that he reflect on his beliefs, come to a different conclusion than he's held, and then apologize for his past views. It doesn't seem like he is going that route.
- muyuu 13y agoWould you change your mind on an issue like this as a result of peer pressure?
- Zigurd 13y ago> Did we learn nothing from Nelson Mandela? You mean like overtly advocating violent overthrow of an oppressive government? Mandela was right. Just not in the way his sanitized image would lead one to expect.
- Touche 13y agoI'm talking about what Mandela did after his cause was won (just as the cause of marriage equality is won in California, and being won across the country).